Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2023, 08:41:23 AM »
Yes, we can all speculate - e.g, your "it's likely . . . " For example, St. Robert Bellarmine was of the opinion that St. Augustine did not hold that the infants were burned.

That is why I want to consider what he actually said and thought, as he himself expressed it.

We know that infants were in the place of fire and they suffered.  Rest doesn't really matter and is a waste of time to argue.  Whether this suffering was due to their proximity to the fire or simply some internal cause is unknown, but the essential point that this is a distraction from is that Augustine said they went to hell, the place of fire, "with the devil" and that they suffered.

Limbo is probably in the same category as BoD, no?  Just like BoD, there's no evidence that it has been revealed, and there's no evidence for it, and you have some Fathers like St. Augustine who rejected the notion, though it seems to be present to some extent in the Greek Fathers.  Just like BoD, after Trent and St. Robert Bellarmine, the notion that infants go to hell was almost universally abandoned, and nearly all theologians taught it for the past several hundred years (which the Catholic Encyclopedia article points out).

So why is it OK for you to reject Limbo but not OK for us to reject BoD?  Both Limbo and BoD are in the same category o theological speculation.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2023, 08:47:54 AM »
Here's what CE says about St. Robert's understanding of St. Augustine:
Quote
It is clear that Bellarmine found the situation embarrassing, being unwilling, as he was, to admit that St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide, and what the Council of Florence seemed to have taught definitively. Hence he names Catharinus and some others as revivers of the Pelagian error, as though their teaching differed in substance from the general teaching of the School, and tries in a milder way to refute what he concedes to be the view of St. Thomas (op. cit., vi-vii). He himself adopts a view which is substantially that of Abelard mentioned above; but he is obliged to do violence to the text of St. Augustine and other Fathers in his attempt to explain them in conformity with this view, and to contradict the principle he elsewhere insists upon that "original sin does not destroy the natural but only the supernatural order." (op. cit., iv).



Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2023, 08:53:13 AM »
Then it continues:
Quote
Neither of these theologians [Bellarmine or a guy named Petavius], however, succeeded in winning a large following or in turning the current of Catholic opinion from the channel into which St. Thomas had directed it. Besides Natalis Alexander (De peccat. et virtut, I, i, 12), and Estius (In Sent., II, xxxv, 7), Bellarmine's chief supporter was Bossuet, who vainly tried to induce Innocent XII to condemn certain propositions which he extracted from a posthumous work of Cardinal Sfrondati and in which the lenient scholastic view is affirmed. Only professed Augustinians like Noris and Berti, or out-and-out Jansenists like the Bishop of Pistoia, whose famous diocesan synod furnished eighty-five propositions for condemnation by Pius VI (1794), supported the harsh teaching of Petavius. The twenty-sixth of these propositions repudiated "as a Pelagian fable the existence of the place (usually called the children's limbo) in which the souls of those dying in original sin are punished by the pain of loss without any pain of fire"; and this, taken to mean that by denying the pain of fire one thereby necessarily postulates a middle place or state, involving neither guilt nor penalty, between the Kingdom of God and eternal damnation, is condemned by the pope as being "false and rash and as slander of the Catholic schools" (Denz. 526).

This condemnation was practically the death-knell of extreme Augustinianism, while the mitigate Augustinianism of Bellarmine and Bossuet had already been rejected by the bulk of Catholic theologians. Suarez, for example, ignoring Bellarmine's protest, continued to teach what Catharinus had taught — that unbaptized children will not only enjoy perfect natural happiness, but that they will rise with immortal bodies at the last day and have the renovated earth for their happy abode (De vit. et penat., ix, sect. vi, n. 4); and, without insisting on such details, the great majority of Catholic theologians have continued to maintain the general doctrine that the children's limbo is a state of perfect natural happiness, just the same as it would have been if God had not established the present supernatural order. It is true, on the other hand, that some Catholic theologians have stood out for some kind of compromise with Augustinianism, on the ground that nature itself was wounded and weakened, or, at least that certain natural rights (including the right to perfect felicity) were lost in consequence of the Fall. But these have granted for the most part that the children's limbo implies exemption, not only from the pain of sense, but from any positive spiritual anguish for the loss of the beatific vision; and not a few have been willing to admit a certain degree of natural happiness in limbo. What has been chiefly in dispute is whether this happiness is as perfect and complete as it would have been in the hypothetical state of pure nature, and this is what the majority of Catholic theologians have affirmed.

So, for the past several hundred years now, there are practically no theologians who have held that unbaptized infants go to Hell and suffer anything at all.  Why is it OK for individuals to reject this, including the same ones who keep arguing the "450 years" in support of BoD?

I hold the same opinion that was described that Suarez held above.

But, despite several hundred years of near-unanimous theological opinion in favor of Limbus Infantium, I do not claim that someone is condemned as a heretic for rejecting that Limbo, since it's not been actively taught by the Magisterium nor has the opinion of St. Augustine been condemned.  I'm consistent there.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2023, 09:04:02 AM »
We know that infants were in the place of fire and they suffered.  Rest doesn't really matter and is a waste of time to argue.  Whether this suffering was due to their proximity to the fire or simply some internal cause is unknown, but the essential point that this is a distraction from is that Augustine said they went to hell, the place of fire, "with the devil" and that they suffered.

Limbo is probably in the same category as BoD, no?  Just like BoD, there's no evidence that it has been revealed, and there's no evidence for it, and you have some Fathers like St. Augustine who rejected the notion, though it seems to be present to some extent in the Greek Fathers.  Just like BoD, after Trent and St. Robert Bellarmine, the notion that infants go to hell was almost universally abandoned, and nearly all theologians taught it for the past several hundred years (which the Catholic Encyclopedia article points out).

So why is it OK for you to reject Limbo but not OK for us to reject BoD?  Both Limbo and BoD are in the same category o theological speculation.

I don't "reject" Limbo, since I think even those who recognize the concept place it in hell, albeit "on the border" or whatever. One can argue for a Limbo of "perfect happiness," for example, if one recognizes that the denial of the beatific vision is a punishment or penalty, as Innocent III and the Council of Florence do.

We disagree on BoD, often too emphatically. :laugh1:

The only way BoD is in the same category as "Limbo" is in the sense that the Magisterium has talked about "core concepts" for both, i.e., a possibility of justification in voto, and a "penalty" or "punishment" for those dying in original sin. Beyond that, one can speculate. So you can speculate, a la St. Thomas, that these infants have a state of natural happiness, recognizing that the denial of the beatific vision is a "penalty" or "punishment" for these infants.

In my view, it is not "ok" to speculate that there is no possibility for justification in voto, or that the infants do not receive a "penalty" or "punishment" as a result of not being baptized either in re or in voto.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2023, 09:13:58 AM »
Then it continues:
So, for the past several hundred years now, there are practically no theologians who have held that unbaptized infants go to Hell and suffer anything at all.  Why is it OK for individuals to reject this, including the same ones who keep arguing the "450 years" in support of BoD?

I hold the same opinion that was described that Suarez held above.

But, despite several hundred years of near-unanimous theological opinion in favor of Limbus Infantium, I do not claim that someone is condemned as a heretic for rejecting that Limbo, since it's not been actively taught by the Magisterium nor has the opinion of St. Augustine been condemned.  I'm consistent there.

I do not rely on theologians, and I think I made that distinction above regarding BoD.

Of course, one may point to theologians in support if they agree with you on the interpretation of a Magisterial text, particularly if they agree unanimously, if not numerically, but by a clear moral majority, as regarding BoD. The opinion of theologians, if they don't conflict with the Magsiterium, are evidence either in support or against an argument.

If, however, a theologian opined that infants who die without baptism do not incur a "penalty" or "punishment," I would reject them on the basis of Magisterial texts - Innocent III, the Council of Florence, the Catechism of Trent. 

Our differences on BoD, again, come down to the Magisterial texts. The unanimity of theologians with my view - all of Fr. Cekada's theologians in his list, while differing as to theological classification of BoD, e.g., de fide, etc., all agree with the "core concept" of the possibility of justification in voto - are merely support for my reading of a Magisterial text(s).