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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32189 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2023, 02:38:42 PM »
Is the claim he thought infants would be tormented with the fires of hell, albeit "mildly," some form of Catholic urban myth?


It could be ignorance about Limbo, not understanding that Limbo is within the confines of Hell, thinking rather that Limbo is outside of both Heaven and Hell.

Offline trad123

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2023, 02:54:19 PM »
THE MYSTICAL CITY OF GOD

VOLUME III

Chapter XXV

Quote
749. To one side of hell is purgatory, where the souls of the just are purged and where they cleanse themselves, if they have not satisfied for their faults in this life, or have not departed from this earthly life entirely free from the defects incapacitating them for the beatific vision. This cavern is also large, but not so large as hell; and though there are severe punishments in purgatory, they have no connection with those of hell.

To the other side is limbo with two different divisions: The one for the children, who die unbaptized and tainted only with original sin, without either good or bad works of their own election. The other served as a retreat for the just, who had already satisfied for their sins; for they could not enter heaven, nor enjoy the vision of God until the Redemption of man was accomplished and until Christ our Savior should open the gates of heaven closed by the sin of Adam (Ps. 23, 9). This cavern is likewise smaller than hell, and has no connection with it, nor are there in it the pains of the senses like in purgatory. For it was destined for the souls already cleansed in purgatory and implied only the absence of beatific vision or pain of privation; there also stayed all those who died in the state of grace until the death of the Redeemer. This is the place to which Christ’s soul descended with the Divinity and which we refer to in saying that He descended into hell.

For the word “hell” may be used to signify any of the infernal regions in the depths of the earth, though commonly we apply it only to the hell of the demons and the damned. This is the most notable meaning of this word, just as “heaven” ordinarily signifies the empyrean, the habitation of the saints, where they are to dwell forever, while the damned remain forever in hell. The other parts of hell have also the more particular names of purgatory and limbo. After the final judgment heaven and hell only are to be inhabited, since purgatory shall become unnecessary and since even the infants shall be transported to another dwellingplace.


Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2023, 03:05:52 PM »
THE MYSTICAL CITY OF GOD

VOLUME III

Chapter XXV

since even the infants shall be transported to another dwellingplace.
Huh?!?!

Offline trad123

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2023, 03:17:53 PM »
Huh?!?!



I was wondering about that last sentence, as well.

Infants from Limbo will live, after the last judgement, on the new earth, apparently?




https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/paul-vi-still-alive-and-in-hiding/msg562224/#msg562224


The children without proper reason do not go to hell but to limbo, and they will live on the surface of the earth at the end of the world.



https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/baptismofdesire-com/msg272411/#msg272411


Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics originally published in 1891

by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead


[ . . . ]


154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.

Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family—father, mother, and children—may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity—just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.








Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2023, 03:27:03 PM »


I was wondering about that last sentence, as well.

Infants from Limbo will live, after the last judgement, on the new earth, apparently?




https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/paul-vi-still-alive-and-in-hiding/msg562224/#msg562224




https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/baptismofdesire-com/msg272411/#msg272411
Interesting, although I'm skeptical of any book that has salvation of non-Catholics in its title.