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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32189 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2023, 01:31:00 PM »
Thanks for the PDF.  I couldn't access the links.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2023, 01:45:57 PM »
There are some additional, relevant quotes from St. Augustine in the Bellarmine text quoted in the article - which I will look at in more detail - but St. Robert basically agrees with my assessment of St. Augustine's view:


Quote
The seventh objection is from the Fathers Augustine and Fulgentius. For St. Augustine writeth plainly enough that infants shall be tormented in eternal fire (Serm; de Ver. Apost. 14), and St. Fulgentius biddeth us hold most steadfastly to that same belief (De Fide ad Petum, c. 27). I answer, the holy Fathers seem to have wished to signify that the infants should be tormented in eternal fire by detention there, and not by burning. For this is the only thing which Augustine everywhere maintains as certain, that unbaptized children after death shall be in that place where everlasting fire is, together with the devil and his angels. But he plainly said that he could not define what their punishment [poena] should be, or of what quality or how great. And if perchance St. Fulgentius held otherwise, we do him no injustice if we prefer to follow St. Gregory nαzιanzene with the whole school of theologians....

Page 13


As I said, my main interest here is getting St. Augustine right, and doing him justice. I'm going to focus now closely on the actual quotes from him in the article.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2023, 01:48:49 PM »
Thanks for the PDF.  I couldn't access the links.

Yeah. I don't recall how I got the whole article. I think I did the Google search by its title and author. 

The article is particularly good in that I wasn't able to find an English translation of the Bellarmine work elsewhere online. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2023, 02:05:15 PM »
St. Robert Bellarmine comes down in favor of the Augustine view, which he does not read as suffering any physical pain from the "fires of hell" - see prior post. St. Robert's opinion:


Quote
Lastly, it remains for us to discuss the third and fourth opinion, whereof the former exempted infants from all pain, whether inward or outward,
while the latter left them inward pain but freed them altogether from the outward. The former is probable by reason of the authority of St. Thomas, St. Bonaventura, and many other illustrious theologians; but I deem the latter the more probable by reason of the authority of the holy Fathers St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, St. Gregory, and others ;
, who have been followed by some even among the Schoolmen.

I say therefore that unbaptized children will feel mental pain, since they will understand themselves to be deprived of bliss, severed from the company of their pious brethren and parents, thrust into the dungeon of hell, and destined to spend. their lives in eternal darkness.




Page 13


The copy is not perfect at the end there. 

Again, I'm not seeing any discussion by St. Augustine of any pain identified for these infants, outer or inward - maybe I've missed something, or it's in some other quote in the article.  All I see St. Augustine doing is consigning these infants to a place of pain, a place of eternal flames; again, he does so for the reasons discussed, namely, only 2 eternal places, heaven, a place of bliss, and hell, a place of eternal flame (and much torment and suffering for those who commited unforgiven, actual sins).

 But there's St. Robert's opinion. 

Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2023, 02:32:07 PM »
Augustine, Enchiridion ad Laurentium:

Chapter 46. It is Probable that Children are Involved in the Guilt Not Only of the First Pair, But of Their Own Immediate Parents.

And it is said, with much appearance of probability, that infants are involved in the guilt of the sins not only of the first pair, but of their own immediate parents. For that divine judgment, I shall visit the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, certainly applies to them before they come under the new covenant by regeneration. And it was this new covenant that was prophesied of, when it was said by Ezekiel, that the sons should not bear the iniquity of the fathers, and that it should no longer be a proverb in Israel, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge. Here lies the necessity that each man should be born again, that he might be freed from the sin in which he was born. For the sins committed afterwards can be cured by penitence, as we see is the case after baptism. And therefore the new birth would not have been appointed only that the first birth was sinful, so sinful that even one who was legitimately born in wedlock says: I was shapen in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me. He did not say in iniquity, or in sin, though he might have said so correctly; but he preferred to say iniquities and sins, because in that one sin which passed upon all men, and which was so great that human nature was by it made subject to inevitable death, many sins, as I showed above, may be discriminated; and further, because there are other sins of the immediate parents, which though they have not the same effect in producing a change of nature, yet subject the children to guilt unless the divine grace and mercy interpose to rescue them.

Chapter 92. The Resurrection of the Lost.

But as for those who, out of the mass of perdition caused by the first man's sin, are not redeemed through the one Mediator between God and man, they too shall rise again, each with his own body, but only to be punished with the devil and his angels…


Chapter 93. Both the First and the Second Deaths are the Consequence of Sin. Punishment is Proportioned to Guilt.

And neither the first death, which takes place when the soul is compelled to leave the body, nor the second death, which takes place when the soul is not permitted to leave the suffering body, would have been inflicted on man had no one sinned. And, of course, the mildest punishment of all will fall upon those who have added no actual sin, to the original sin they brought with them; and as for the rest who have added such actual sins, the punishment of each will be the more tolerable in the next world, according as his iniquity has been less in this world.

Source:

https://archive.org/details/saureliiaugusti01augugoog/page/n5/mode/1up