Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2023, 04:58:50 PM »
The above from St. Robert Bellarmine who distinguished St. Augustine’s view from that which came later by way of the scholastics, especially St. T. Aquinas.

Source:

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QadSSWT71abU2TKG0MJX3CqHndUk9XrMIMo5zX8bzjad7S4aZEXFHzbzUO3g_WQWA9teRfOik34_8EcbWDK_C5l8NHCUYrhhYRS9NZtyv7HCDyxpoDvSBWGhpL5AZQGre9-hDAaCtxrdBFZlzc88o8yu13BINjRUPriONOT2chpqkAeQUy2onDfYhH_x4z3vofo_QMCPcahKo_RstetmCMjiwEixcL89V-S7RKoPuzKAIiueFj1UK9gOZdaLedc9v6p0B0UXjRrOQcNtxGMn7gK1VxZ0vQ

You're just the source of information, aren't you, Random? Some nice light reading. :laugh1:

It will take time to figure out - or isolate, since none of this appears to be Augustine, but commentary - the actual quotations from St. Augustine. But I look forward to reading it. Thanks.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2023, 12:33:03 AM »
Lad,

It is clear, both by Scripture, the Council of Trent, and indeed Augustine's own words, that all men are "condemned" by Adam's sin, and that this "condemnation" falls upon infants who die unbaptized, who endure the "penalty" or punishment of that condemnation, which comes by way of God's "judgment" (again, Rom. 5:16,18).

No, it's not clear from Sacred Scripture.  There's a completely different trajectory that the Eastern / Greek Fathers took regarding the distinction between nature and grace vs. in the West, where they followed the thinking of St. Augustine.  St. Gregory of nαzιanzen, called "the Theologian", in his famous rejection of BoD, articulated the notion that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Again, I encourage you to read the CE article on Limbo.  St. Thomas Aquinas clearly articulated the Eastern perspective, that elevation to the supernatural state is a free gift that is undeserved, and thus being deprived of it is not a punishment in the sense that it's a withholding of a free gift.  And you can't just rely upon English words like "condemned" out there but need to cite the original languages, which are more precise.  Now, the Jansenists condemned this view as Pelagian, but their condemnation was condemned, and effectively the Church taught that this was not Pelagianism.

I'm not too interested in debating this issue, as the Church has never condemned St. Augustine's position, merely exonerated that of St. Thomas as not being Pelagian, and tenable by Catholics.  IMO, both positions are theologically tenable.  I happen to agree with St. Thomas and the Greek Fathers on the matter.


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2023, 08:08:04 AM »
No, it's not clear from Sacred Scripture.  There's a completely different trajectory that the Eastern / Greek Fathers took regarding the distinction between nature and grace vs. in the West, where they followed the thinking of St. Augustine.  St. Gregory of nαzιanzen, called "the Theologian", in his famous rejection of BoD, articulated the notion that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Again, I encourage you to read the CE article on Limbo.  St. Thomas Aquinas clearly articulated the Eastern perspective, that elevation to the supernatural state is a free gift that is undeserved, and thus being deprived of it is not a punishment in the sense that it's a withholding of a free gift.  And you can't just rely upon English words like "condemned" out there but need to cite the original languages, which are more precise.  Now, the Jansenists condemned this view as Pelagian, but their condemnation was condemned, and effectively the Church taught that this was not Pelagianism.

I'm not too interested in debating this issue, as the Church has never condemned St. Augustine's position, merely exonerated that of St. Thomas as not being Pelagian, and tenable by Catholics.  IMO, both positions are theologically tenable.  I happen to agree with St. Thomas and the Greek Fathers on the matter.

True, even if one were to assume that Augustine's view was as rigorous as some claim - i.e., that unbaptized infants who died were delivered to a mild punishment of actual suffering or pain in the "flames of hell" - the Church has not condemned that view, and it is tenable. However, my interest is in the actual view of St. Augustine, and not the assumption of what it was. Is the assumption accurate or not? Based on the actual quotations and what St. Augustine said, I think not . . . so far.

For both Romans 5:16 and 18, the term from the Vulgate for the English condemnation is condemnātiōnem, a form of condemnātiō, which Wiktionary translates as "1. condemnation 2. verdict." condemnatio - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

T
he Greek NT original in both verses is κατάκριμα, katakrima, Strong's G2631, which is translated as "damnatory sentence, condemnation." G2631 - katakrima - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org). You see the same original word in Romans 8:1 -



Quote
Rom 8:1


There is therefore now no condemnation G2631 to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the Vulgate of Romans 8:1, Jerome uses a different word:


Quote

1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

Nihil ergo nunc damnationis est iis qui sunt in Christo Jesu : qui non secundum carnem ambulant.

Nonbaptized infants are not "in Christ Jesus." They are "condemned," and "damned," Biblically speaking. In English, Greek and Latin. There is no difference that I see between the English and the original languages.

But anyway, I hold Augustine in very high regard, as I know you do. I'd like to know what he thought, not what others who came after him thought, or what others say he thought. What did St. Augustine himself say and think on the matter? That is my question. As you, I do not condemn (no pun intended) any permitted position here.




Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2023, 10:47:07 AM »
The above from St. Robert Bellarmine who distinguished St. Augustine’s view from that which came later by way of the scholastics, especially St. T. Aquinas.

Source:

https://books.googleusercontent.com/books/content?req=AKW5QadSSWT71abU2TKG0MJX3CqHndUk9XrMIMo5zX8bzjad7S4aZEXFHzbzUO3g_WQWA9teRfOik34_8EcbWDK_C5l8NHCUYrhhYRS9NZtyv7HCDyxpoDvSBWGhpL5AZQGre9-hDAaCtxrdBFZlzc88o8yu13BINjRUPriONOT2chpqkAeQUy2onDfYhH_x4z3vofo_QMCPcahKo_RstetmCMjiwEixcL89V-S7RKoPuzKAIiueFj1UK9gOZdaLedc9v6p0B0UXjRrOQcNtxGMn7gK1VxZ0vQ

This "book," or rather article entitled "Infant Perdition in the Middle Ages," from the journal, Medieval Studies, is a real eye opener. Wow. It is written by a Protestant critic of the Church,  but most importantly, pages 6 - 15 are a translation of a work by St. Robert Bellarmine, and contain Bellarmine's words and thinking, directly, on the question. I will quote from Bellarmine's work embedded in the article later, but . . . really, really interesting.

Thank you for the find, and contribution, RandomFish.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2023, 10:59:05 AM »
If you can't open the link, I attach my downloaded pdf. You can also get it online at Google books by simply searching "Infant Perdition in the Middle Ages."

The highlights are mine.