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Author Topic: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"  (Read 639 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
« on: March 26, 2024, 07:55:23 AM »
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    • Reading faith of the early fathers volume 2, and came across this statement.


    Reading it it appears that St. Ambrose leaves out no room for BoD, BoB and Invincible Ignorance. And seems to suggest some potential justification though he is unsure if they can have the 'honor of the kingdom'. This seems almost contradictory. 



    This was the author's note on this passage. He reduces St. Ambrose remake to be about scripture leaving no exceptions with Ambrose being unsure hence the 'honor of the kingdom' statement. However it is strange to me to say that there are no exceptions, then list groups of people that are not excepted, but then also say that you're not sure if they really are exceptions of not...:(
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2024, 07:59:39 AM »
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    • Great find.  I want to track down the Latin here.  This is exactly what I was saying about the Valentinian passage, that everyone has missed, that St. Ambrose says such can be "washed" (have punishments remitted) but not "crowned" (enter the Kingdom).

    This cements my reading of the Valentinian passage.

    This kicks one leg out from the "Augustine and Ambrose" pillars on which all of BoD relies.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2024, 08:11:26 AM »
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    • This is also reminiscent of the teaching of Pope Pius IX that the invincible ignorant won't receive "punishments" on account of involuntary sin.

    Punishments due to sin, guit of sin, and the glory of the Kingdom are 3 separate things, and simply because someone might be "washed" of the punishments either through martyrdom or else their votum does not mean they can enter the Beatific Vision.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2024, 08:13:15 AM »
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    • We add this to the list on this thread.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/patristic-support-for-ladilausian-soteriology/

    I have long concluded and argued regarding the distinction between "punishment" and the glory of the Kingdom.

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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2024, 08:14:40 AM »
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    • Is there a reference in the book for this passage?  It would be good to track that down. The context of the quote could be very important, as well. 
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    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #5 on: March 26, 2024, 08:17:20 AM »
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    • Distinguishing between "punishments" and the "honor of the Kingom" is also precisely what St. Gregory nαzιanzen does.  This passage from St. Ambrose is making the exact same distinction.

    St. Gregory nαzιanzen:
    Quote
    For not everyone who is not bad enough to be punished is good enough to be honored; just as not everyone who is not good enough to be honored is bad enough to be punished.
    ...
    If desire in your opinion has equal power with actual baptism, then judge in the same way in regard to glory, and you may be content with longing for it, as if that were itself glory.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #6 on: March 26, 2024, 08:19:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: ihsv on March 26, 2024, 08:14:40 AM
    Is there a reference in the book for this passage?  It would be good to track that down. The context of the quote could be very important, as well.

    Right, if OP can give us an exact citation, I'll dig it up from Migne.  I'd love to see the Latin for "undisclosed", "exemption", and "punishments".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #7 on: March 26, 2024, 08:23:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 26, 2024, 07:55:23 AM
    This was the author's note on this passage. He reduces St. Ambrose remake to be about scripture leaving no exceptions with Ambrose being unsure hence the 'honor of the kingdom' statement. However it is strange to me to say that there are no exceptions, then list groups of people that are not excepted, but then also say that you're not sure if they really are exceptions of not...:(

    That's because the individual making the commentary fails to see the distinction between punishments and the honor of the Kingdom that St. Ambrose explicitly states.  Cf. St. Gregory nαzιanzen also on that.  There's this Pelagian undercurrent in the BoD mentality that if one isn't bad enough to be punished that he "deserves" entry into the Kingdom.  This "exemption" is with regard to the "punishments".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #8 on: March 26, 2024, 08:44:44 AM »
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    • I've found "On Abraham" but it's pretty long, so narrowing it down would help.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #9 on: March 26, 2024, 09:16:24 AM »
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    • Regarding the citation. the numbers 2, 11, 84 is what you want to look at. To understand this you may need to this these images

    First image is the book


    first attachment image is the foreword of Volume 2, I am unsure if Volume 2 explains the numbers so I have attached the relevant parts (i hope) from the vol 1 foerword

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    Offline ihsv

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #10 on: March 26, 2024, 09:18:51 AM »
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    • Lad, I asked the omnicscient ChatGPT where this quote came from, and this is what it came back with: This quote is from St. Ambrose's "On Abraham" in Book 2, Chapter 11, Section 79.

    I haven't time to look it up, but you might start there.
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    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #11 on: March 26, 2024, 09:21:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on March 26, 2024, 07:55:23 AM
    Reading faith of the early fathers volume 2, and came across this statement.


    Reading it it appears that St. Ambrose leaves out no room for BoD, BoB and Invincible Ignorance. And seems to suggest some potential justification though he is unsure if they can have the 'honor of the kingdom'. This seems almost contradictory.



    This was the author's note on this passage. He reduces St. Ambrose remake to be about scripture leaving no exceptions with Ambrose being unsure hence the 'honor of the kingdom' statement. However it is strange to me to say that there are no exceptions, then list groups of people that are not excepted, but then also say that you're not sure if they really are exceptions of not...:(

    Baptism is also mentioned in an earlier passage quoted right above in the source book FoteF, 2, 11 ,79
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2024, 09:55:10 AM »
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    • Thanks.  When I have some time later today, I'll try to find it in Migne Patrologia Latina.  Problem is that the copies online are not easy to search through.  Seems to indicate Volume 4 for PL.  I've not seen a CSEL online anywhere.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2024, 10:01:44 AM »
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    • I found CSEL online ... http://www.earlymedievalmonasticism.org/Corpus-Scriptorum-Ecclesiasticorum-Latinorum.html

    But it doesn't have De Abraham and the citation to Volume 32 Part 1 page 419 puts us in the middle of De Noe ("On Noah").  Perhaps it's in a different edition, or this work got mysteriously excised.  hmmm.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St Ambrose On baptism in book "Abraham"
    « Reply #14 on: March 26, 2024, 10:54:24 AM »
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    • Found the Latin for the quotation from 2,11,84:
    Quote
    nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et spiritu sancto, non potest introire in regnum dei.  utique nullum excepit, non infantem, non aliqua praeventum necessitate: habeant tamen illam opertam poenarum inmunitatem, nescio an habeant regni honorem.

    Translation above is fairly accurate.  I'm not sure about the punctuation (added by editor, since the Latin writers didn't use the punctuation).  It's a bit of a peculiar syntax.  I'll make some comments later when I have more time.
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