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Author Topic: St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood  (Read 5825 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
« on: August 04, 2013, 02:18:01 AM »
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  • Cathedra wrote:
    Quote

    St. Alphonsus made an error, that's just a fact.

    Why don't you just check what he cites?

    He cited Session 14, chapter 4, which is talking about the Sacrament of Penance, not Baptism, that's just a fact.


    Bowler in the tract (which lacked a citation) that he posted describing supposed errors of St. Alphonsus wrote:

    Quote
    3rd Error

    To substantiate his position on baptism of desire, St. Alphonsus first makes reference to Sess. 14, Chap. 4 of the Council of Trent. He says:

    “As the Council of Trent says (Sess. 14, Chap. 4), it takes the place of the latter
    with regard to the remission of the guilt, but does not imprint a character nor
    take away all the debt of punishment.”

    This is completely wrong. Sess. 14, Chap. 4 of the Council of Trent does not say that baptism of desire “takes the place of the latter (i.e., baptism) with regard to the remission of the guilt,” as St. Alphonsus claims. Let’s look at the passage:

    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 14, Chap. 4, on the Sacrament of Penance:
    “The Council teaches, furthermore, that though it sometimes happens that this
    contrition is perfect because of charity and reconciles man to God, before this
    sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation must not be ascribed to the
    contrition itself without the desire of the sacrament which is included in it.”

    The Council here defines that perfect contrition with the desire for the Sacrament of Penance can restore a man to the grace of God before the sacrament is received. It says nothing of Baptism! St. Alphonsus’s very premise – that baptism of desire is taught in Sess. 14, Chap. 4 – is erroneous. Trent says nothing of the sort. If the very premises upon which he argued baptism of desire were flawed and erroneous, how can one be
    bound to the conclusions that flow from such false premises?


    This is either a case of crass ignorance or blatant dishonesty.  I hope for your sakes the former.

    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:

    Quote
    The council teaches furthermore, that though it happens sometimes that this contrition is perfect through charity and reconciles man to God before this sacrament is actually received, this reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to the contrition itself without a desire of the sacrament, which desire is included in it.
    . (From Session XIV, Council of Trent, http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent14.htm )

    Session IV states that a man can be forgiven by perfect contrition without the Sacrament of Penance.  St. Alphonsus was demonstrating the likeness between Baptism of Desire and perfect contrition, in that they both occur without the actual sacrament.

    When St. Alphonsus continues, he supports his statement that Baptism of Desire is de fide by citing the applicable statement from Trent.

    If you read the statement from Trent that he cites, Session 6, Chapter IV, the Council states:  

    Quote

    In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

    This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire
    , as it is written:

    Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]
    .   http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent6.htm

    Here the Council directly connects together John 3:5 with Baptism of Desire.  The Council also teaches that the sacrament or the desire for it will bring a soul into the state of grace, and make them adopted sons of God.

    This is why St. Alphonsus states that Baptism of Desire is de fide.  It is taught explicitly in the Council of Trent.  The Council cited John 3:5 and interpreted it dogmatically as meaning both the Sacrament or the desire for it.

    You can read St. Alphonsus in his own words here: http://archive.org/stream/theologiamorali02heilgoog#page/n318/mode/2up. St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, nn. 95-101, on Baptism of Desire and Blood (pp. 309-311).

    John Daly made a rough but incomplete translation of part of it:  http://www.sedevacantist.com/baptism.html

    If you wish, I can translate the entire text completely and accurately.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Cathedra

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 03:04:02 AM »
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  • Yes, you're right. I didn't know about that of course.

    I know what the source bowler used is, so i'll tell you: the Dimond's book.

    Nevertheless, be that as it may, just because St. Alphonsus said it was de fide, doesn't make it so, for only a Pope can do that.

    Also, i never bought the idea that the Council of Trent "explicitly teaches" BOD for several reasons:

    1- Session 6 chapter 4 is dealing with Justification, not the Sacrament of Baptism. You would think if Trent defined BOD, it would at least be in the canons on Baptism and at least mention it no?

    2- If you contend that it did taught that the VOW (not merely the desire) to receive baptism justifies, then why get baptized to begin with if you can just vow to receive it?

    3- How long does this state in which you are justified by the vow last? Until you are able to get baptized? For days? Years? There is no mention of this whatsoever, which you would think would be necessary information.

    4- Nowhere does the Council even mention "Baptism of desire" in any explicit way whatsoever, and yet you all contend it decisively settled the matter.

    5- Since there is no mention at all of "baptism of desire" being a substitute in sesion 6 chapter 4 anyways, and since it is a fact it is speaking about the process of adult justification, and since it immediately says "as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God", the only logical conclusion is that it means you have to desire baptism in order for it to be valid, which is basic teaching on baptism to begin with.


    Offline bowler

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 05:18:51 AM »
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  • Quote
    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:


    You said that Trent teaches baptism of desire. If it did, why does St. Alphonsus have to use an analogy?

    Offline bowler

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 05:49:07 AM »
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  • By the way, Cathedra said everything that needs to be said, I only added one point.

    The problem is that BOD supporters take a snippet from St. Alphonsus and blow it up to say the BOD is de Fide. They do this because they have few sources for their teaching of so-called BOD, which they within themselves do not even agree on.


    Offline SJB

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 09:55:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Yes, you're right. I didn't know about that of course.
    Yes, nice to see you admit to an error but I suspect because that's because you don't think it wrecks the position you are wedded to.

    Quote
    Nevertheless, be that as it may, just because St. Alphonsus said it was de fide, doesn't make it so, for only a Pope can do that.
    A de fide doctrine is not necessarily a defined dogma. If you'd examine the Church's own classifications of theological notes you'd see this.

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Stubborn

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 10:21:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    A de fide doctrine is not necessarily a defined dogma. If you'd examine the Church's own classifications of theological notes you'd see this.


    You are giving another one of your erroneous opinions and you are wrong again. From now on, try to post references that support your opinions so we can see where these erroneous thoughts of yours originate from.




    From the CE:

    A proposition is branded heretical when it goes directly and immediately against a revealed or defined dogma, or dogma de fide.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 02:10:58 PM »
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  • The source I utilize has the following

    2. St. Alphonsus Liguori 1691-1787

    Moral Theology - (Bk. 6):
       "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon "Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato" and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    wherein Saint Alphonsus references Session 6 Chapter 4 of the Council of Trent

    CHAPTER IV.

    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Cathedra

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 02:36:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Yes, nice to see you admit to an error but I suspect because that's because you don't think it wrecks the position you are wedded to.


    Indeed, it doesn't.

    Quote
    A de fide doctrine is not necessarily a defined dogma. If you'd examine the Church's own classifications of theological notes you'd see this.


    Yes i agree but the thing is, just because only St. Alphonsus thought this was so, doesn't make it so.

    How can you possibly imply they could be de fide when considering what happened with St. Augustine's teaching on unbaptized infants, which was around at least 2 more centuries than the baptisms have?


    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 04:11:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Yes, you're right. I didn't know about that of course.

    I know what the source bowler used is, so i'll tell you: the Dimond's book.

    Nevertheless, be that as it may, just because St. Alphonsus said it was de fide, doesn't make it so, for only a Pope can do that.

    Also, i never bought the idea that the Council of Trent "explicitly teaches" BOD for several reasons:

    1- Session 6 chapter 4 is dealing with Justification, not the Sacrament of Baptism. You would think if Trent defined BOD, it would at least be in the canons on Baptism and at least mention it no?

    2- If you contend that it did taught that the VOW (not merely the desire) to receive baptism justifies, then why get baptized to begin with if you can just vow to receive it?

    3- How long does this state in which you are justified by the vow last? Until you are able to get baptized? For days? Years? There is no mention of this whatsoever, which you would think would be necessary information.

    4- Nowhere does the Council even mention "Baptism of desire" in any explicit way whatsoever, and yet you all contend it decisively settled the matter.

    5- Since there is no mention at all of "baptism of desire" being a substitute in sesion 6 chapter 4 anyways, and since it is a fact it is speaking about the process of adult justification, and since it immediately says "as it is written: unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God", the only logical conclusion is that it means you have to desire baptism in order for it to be valid, which is basic teaching on baptism to begin with.


    Cathedra,

    It takes humility to admit when one is wrong, and fortitude to admit it publicly.  By admitting this, I have grown in my respect for you.  I am happy that we have cleared up the initial point that St. Alphonsus did not err in his citation.

    I had suspected that Bowler's tract was the work of the Dimonds.  Thank you for confirming that.  Their sloppy way of writing about theology is their signature.

    I will answer your points using your numbering.  To your points:

    1.  Session 6, Chapter 4 was not defining Baptism of Desire as though it was a controversy that needed to be settled.  It was reaffirming the teaching of the Church on an an uncontroverted point.  

    Keep in mind that Baptism of Desire was taught prior to Trent by some of the Church's greatest theologians of all time, St. Thomas, St. Albert the Great, St Bonaventure, St. Bernard of Clairvoux to name some.  There was no controversy here, and that is why Trent did not treat it such a manner, no one ever denied Baptism of Desire, so no canons were needed to anathemaitize those who did deny it.

    2.  First, I do not know why you keep referring to the desire for Baptism as a vow to get baptized.   The word used by Trent is "voto" which is the dative of votum.  Votum can be translated to "vow" but in the context of Trent, it is obvious that this is not the case.  Only an amateur would make such a mistake.  

    This is the reason why the trained and educated translators and commentators of Trent never translate votum to mean a vow.  It also translates to a " a wish," or a "pledge" which is synonymous with a desire.  A rule of thumb regarding translations, use pre-Vatican II translations of Latin as much as possible rather than rely on the mostly untrained translators of today, some of whom have an agenda.

    Now, to your question.  If one desires Baptism, and does not seek to fulfill his desire by getting baptized, then he is false.  Baptism of Desire is not some sort of fleeting hope to someday get baptized, but it is a true desire to actually receive the sacrament.  God is not mocked, and He knows our true intentions.

    3.  Time is irrelevant.  It is one's love of God and a desire to fulfill His law by getting baptized that justifies the soul.  If the desire is sincere and not false, the person will be taking active steps to receive the sacrament as soon as possible.  

    If a man states that he truly loves a woman, and ask her to marry him, but then keeps putting the wedding off for less than grave reasons, he is false.  If one desires to please God, one follows God's Plan and His Law, and does not tell God, "I want to obey you, but let's wait a few years."  Such a person is mocking God and is not truly desiring the Sacrament.

    The state of justification remains unless a mortal sin is committed.

    4.  Yes, the Council does specifically teach Baptism of Desire.  As St. Alphonsus brilliantly explained, it is taught is Session 6, Chapter IV.  Let us again read from Trent:
    Quote

    In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

    This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

    Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God
    .[18]


    Take note of the following from the text:  The Council is teaching explicitly that both the sacrament of Baptism or the desire for it does two things:  It transfers someone from the state of sin to the state of grace (justification), and secondly, it makes them adopted sons of God.  

    The Council then references John 3:5 as its support of this teaching.  By citing John 3:5, the Council is interpreting the words of Our Lord to mean both the sacrament or the desire for it.  

    Now, when the Council states that both the Sacrament or the desire for it makes one an adopted son of God, that has a specific meaning, that one is an heir to the inheritance that is promised to us, namely the Beatific Vision, or Heaven.  

    The Council teaches this clearly, and that is why St Alphonsus teaches that it is de fide, and specifically references Trent as his source.  By referencing Trent as the source of his assertion, St. Alphonsus is not giving a mere opinion, he is witnessing to a truth explicitly taught in the Council of Trent, and due to this, the teaching is de fide.

    5.  Baptism of Desire is not a substitute for the Sacrament.  To see it that way is perverse.  Baptism of Desire is internal, meaning that it is between the God and the person.  When the desire is made public, and the person becomes a catechumen, the desire is then both internal and external.  For this reason, a Catechumen, as the Holy Canons teach can have a Catholic burial.  

    But, such is not the case with a person who has not yet become a catechumen, but desires the Sacrament.  For example, John Smith, a Hindu, reads some books on the Catholic Faith, and then by God's grace has a radical conversion, accepts everything the Church teaches, and tells Our Lord that He loves Him, wishes to obey him, and desires to receive Baptism.  Unfortunately for John, the nearest priest is far away, and it will take time to see him and become a catechumen.  

    Before John gets to see the priest, he dies, visibly outside the Church.  He cannot have a Catholic burial, but he could still be saved through Baptism of Desire, as he had the Faith, and He loved God.

    To your second point, in order to receive the Sacrament validly, one must not have a contrary intention, rather than an explicit desire.  That is why people who do not explicitly desire baptism can be baptized, such as infants, the retarded, etc.  Their sponsors assume the responsibility.

    Another example could be a lax teenager who only receives Confirmation to please his parents, but does not care about the Sacrament.  The Confirmation would still be valid so long as the teen did not have a contrary intention.  One would have to intend to not receive the sacrament for it to be invalid based on intent.





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    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 04:31:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote
    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:


    You said that Trent teaches baptism of desire. If it did, why does St. Alphonsus have to use an analogy?


    Saint Alphonsus uses the example of perfect contrition which can restore a man to the state of grace prior to the sacrament of Penance to show how this works in like manner with the desire for Baptism.  In both cases, a man is justified without the reception of the sacrament.

    Saint Alphonsus was not just saying that Baptism of Desire is de fide, and that's the end of it, he explains Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline bowler

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 04:53:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote
    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:


    You said that Trent teaches baptism of desire. If it did, why does St. Alphonsus have to use an analogy?


    Saint Alphonsus uses the example of perfect contrition which can restore a man to the state of grace prior to the sacrament of Penance to show how this works in like manner with the desire for Baptism.  In both cases, a man is justified without the reception of the sacrament.

    Saint Alphonsus was not just saying that Baptism of Desire is de fide, and that's the end of it, he explains Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  


    Again, if Trent taught BOD, he would not be forced to use an analogy.

    You accept an analogy, while rejecting the clear direct decree of Trent that says that one must receive the sacrament of baptism to be saved.

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra:  “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”


    Offline Ambrose

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 05:46:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote
    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:


    You said that Trent teaches baptism of desire. If it did, why does St. Alphonsus have to use an analogy?


    Saint Alphonsus uses the example of perfect contrition which can restore a man to the state of grace prior to the sacrament of Penance to show how this works in like manner with the desire for Baptism.  In both cases, a man is justified without the reception of the sacrament.

    Saint Alphonsus was not just saying that Baptism of Desire is de fide, and that's the end of it, he explains Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  


    Again, if Trent taught BOD, he would not be forced to use an analogy.

    You accept an analogy, while rejecting the clear direct decree of Trent that says that one must receive the sacrament of baptism to be saved.

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra:  “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”


    Bowler,

    You missed the entire point.  Did you read my posts carefully? When St. Alphonsus was explaining Baptism of Desire, he cited Session XIV, Chapter 4.  When he stated that Baptism of Desire was de fide, he cited Session VI, Chapter 4.  

    He was not forced to use an analogy to prove that Baptism of Desire is de fide.  You really need to read what he said, you are twisting it.  

    Let, me ask you something:  Do you believe St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, was either ignorant or so sloppy that he did not know about the canons on Baptism?  I can answer that for you, he was not.  He was brilliant, unlike these lesser men that twist the meanings of the Sacred canons.

    Regarding Session VII, Canon 5:  Baptism is not optional, we are commanded by God to receive it.  Anyone that says it is optional to either receive it or not receive it, is anathema.  Baptism of Desire has nothing to to with this Canon.  Those who are justified through Baptism of Desire are not saying, "Baptism is optional, so I choose to not receive it."  No, they are actively seeking Baptism, and they are not treating it as an option.

    Regarding Session VII, Canon 2:  Real and natural water is necessary for the sacrament of Baptism.  There can be no substitute.  As with Canon 5, this has nothing to do with Baptism of Desire.  Baptism of Desire is not the sacrament of Baptism, therefore it is not a metaphor for the Sacrament.  

    To use these Canons against Baptism of Desire is to to perversely twist their meaning.


    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline SJB

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 07:31:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: SJB
    Yes, nice to see you admit to an error but I suspect because that's because you don't think it wrecks the position you are wedded to.


    Indeed, it doesn't.

    Quote
    A de fide doctrine is not necessarily a defined dogma. If you'd examine the Church's own classifications of theological notes you'd see this.


    Yes i agree but the thing is, just because only St. Alphonsus thought this was so, doesn't make it so.

    How can you possibly imply they could be de fide when considering what happened with St. Augustine's teaching on unbaptized infants, which was around at least 2 more centuries than the baptisms have?
    But you don't agree.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #13 on: January 05, 2014, 03:33:12 PM »
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    As you two should know, St Alphonsus did not cite session XIV, on Penance, of the Council of Trent as though it was his source on Baptism of Desire.  He used the Latin word, juxta in relation to the citation.  He was saying that Baptism of Desire is like perfect contrition as described in Session XIV:


    You said that Trent teaches baptism of desire. If it did, why does St. Alphonsus have to use an analogy?


    Saint Alphonsus uses the example of perfect contrition which can restore a man to the state of grace prior to the sacrament of Penance to show how this works in like manner with the desire for Baptism.  In both cases, a man is justified without the reception of the sacrament.

    Saint Alphonsus was not just saying that Baptism of Desire is de fide, and that's the end of it, he explains Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood.  


    Again, if Trent taught BOD, he would not be forced to use an analogy.

    You accept an analogy, while rejecting the clear direct decree of Trent that says that one must receive the sacrament of baptism to be saved.

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra:  “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”


    Bowler,

    You missed the entire point.  Did you read my posts carefully? When St. Alphonsus was explaining Baptism of Desire, he cited Session XIV, Chapter 4.  When he stated that Baptism of Desire was de fide, he cited Session VI, Chapter 4.  

    He was not forced to use an analogy to prove that Baptism of Desire is de fide.  You really need to read what he said, you are twisting it.  

    Let, me ask you something:  Do you believe St. Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, was either ignorant or so sloppy that he did not know about the canons on Baptism?  I can answer that for you, he was not.  He was brilliant, unlike these lesser men that twist the meanings of the Sacred canons.

    Regarding Session VII, Canon 5:  Baptism is not optional, we are commanded by God to receive it.  Anyone that says it is optional to either receive it or not receive it, is anathema.  Baptism of Desire has nothing to to with this Canon.  Those who are justified through Baptism of Desire are not saying, "Baptism is optional, so I choose to not receive it."  No, they are actively seeking Baptism, and they are not treating it as an option.

    Regarding Session VII, Canon 2:  Real and natural water is necessary for the sacrament of Baptism.  There can be no substitute.  As with Canon 5, this has nothing to do with Baptism of Desire.  Baptism of Desire is not the sacrament of Baptism, therefore it is not a metaphor for the Sacrament.  

    To use these Canons against Baptism of Desire is to to perversely twist their meaning.




    OK,  Ambrose if St. Alphonsus is correct in his teaching that explicit baptism of desire is defide (which you keep repeating ad-nauseum), then it is  infallible, and a heresy to deny. Therefore, you are a heretic for believing that someone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be baptized, nor belief in the Mysteries of the Holy Trinity, and Christ and  His Church. No?

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    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Desire and Blood
    « Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 08:12:31 PM »
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  • Ambrose the "defide" heretic around?