Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14

Author Topic: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent  (Read 16121 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2023, 12:53:06 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 13, 2023, 10:07:12 PM
The context is the grace that is conferred through baptism, which does indeed remit all temporal punishment.  The grace received from baptism of desire has justifies, and hence remits all eternal punishment for sin, but it does not necessarily forgive temporal punishment, as St. Thomas explains:

That would make it two different graces, instead of one and the same grace of Baptism.



Logged

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2023, 01:09:29 PM »
III.  Question 66. 

Article 11


https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article11



Quote
I answer that, As stated above (III:62:5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him.




https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/st-alphonsus-contradicts-trent/msg888476/#msg888476




Quote
so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just.

Logged

Offline SPelli

Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2023, 01:13:24 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on June 14, 2023, 12:53:06 PM
That would make it two different graces, instead of one and the same grace of Baptism.

The grace received through baptism of desire is the same quality as that which is received in absolution.  When a person in mortal sin receives absolution, his sins are forgiven, but the temporal punishment for his sin is not.  That is, his temporal punishment is not remitted by the grace received through absolution, but it could be remitted if, in addition to absolution, his personal contrition sufficed to remit it.
Logged

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2023, 01:14:02 PM »
Even if one believes in baptism of desire / blood, the grace that is merited through Christ's Passion by which both sacramental baptism and baptism of blood / desire derive their efficacy would necessarily have to be one and the same grace.

Logged

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: St Alphonsus contradicts Trent
« Reply #59 on: June 14, 2023, 01:25:17 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 14, 2023, 01:13:24 PM
The grace received through baptism of desire is the same quality as that which is received in absolution. 


You've quoted previously from the Baltimore catechism, have you not?



https://www.drbo.org/cat/cgi-bin/d?b=cat&bk=2&ch=23&l=80-



Quote
Q. 308. Does each of the sacraments also give a special grace?
A. Each of the sacraments also gives a special grace, called sacramental grace, which helps one to carry out the particular purpose of that sacrament.
 
The sacramental grace of Baptism is a regenerative grace that helps us to live well the new supernatural life we have begun;


[ . . . ]


the sacramental grace of Penance is a curative grace that helps us to detest sin effectively, to satisfy for sin committed , and to avoid future sin;



Logged
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14
« previous next »