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Author Topic: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction  (Read 6570 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2026, 12:42:55 PM »
To be frank, I mentioned the subject in passing and this isn't a central claim. I do not know how to differentiate the calumnies on Fr Feeney from the truth, I will stay neutral on the subject for now and put it in the list of things I need to study.

The only thing I know with absolute certainty and there is no debate at all on the question is that his position is false, according to people far more qualified than he was.
Attached is a book on the subject worth reading. The first two paragraphs of the Introduction sums up the whole episode imo.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2026, 01:02:47 PM »
@PaxVobis - I'm still interested in this question?
It's irrelevant to the conversation, but i'll answer.  Yes, some of these have personally happened to me.  Some have happened to close family/friends.  Numerous, numerous stories out there.

Back to the point, though, no...this is not some personal vendetta against "3 baptism catholics".  I'm not related to Fr Feeney.  My views aren't based on emotion, or some type of personal crusade against BOD.

There is a personal crusade involved though, but it's based on doctrine.  The same doctrine that Fr Feeney was supporting, which is EENS.  There is also a personal crusade against V2 and it's teaching of universal salvation, of which BOD plays a part.

Fr Feeney's crusade was merely him projecting the slipperly-slope of where BOD (the corrupted, vague, ambigous notions of it) would lead (i.e. V2) and were leading to (in the 1940s).  In those days, the idea that protestants were going to hell was "frowned upon" in both society, in the media and also by the pre-V2 heretics and lukewarm clerics which (eventually) brought us V2.  These pre-modernists were pushing V2-style ecuмenism long, long, LONG BEFORE pope JP2 had his inter-faith abomination at Assisi in 1986.

Some of you just haven't connected the dots yet.  Just like covid was prepared for by the previous 40 years (i.e. the AIDS epidemic in the 80s, the bird flu, the swine flu, SARS, etc), so the V2 ecuмenism was prepared for LONG BEFORE 1969.  And that's what Fr Feeney was fighting.  There was ecuмenical heresy going on in the 1940s and 50s.  And a corruption of BOD led to V2's universal salvation.  THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

If someone wants to believe in St Thomas' BOD, which requires EXPLICIT belief in the Incarnation/Trinity BY A CATECHUMEN, then go ahead.  I see no problem.

But that's NOT what Fr Feeney was arguing against.  He was arguing against pre-V2/heretical ecuмenism wherein "pious jews", "sincere muslims and hindus" could be saved, not knowing of the church, not knowing about baptism, but only "seeking God" in their hearts.  THAT'S NOT CATHOLIC, THAT'S HERESY.  THAT'S NOT WHAT ST AUGUSTINE, ST THOMAS, ST BELLARMINE, AND ST ALPHONSUS were talking about.

That's what this debate is about, really.  The corruption of BOD, which started in the 1700s, by the pre-modernists and gained steam in the 1900s, which was a precursor to V2.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2026, 01:20:39 PM »
I am still waiting for you to search the word "aut" in a latin dictionary and tell me what you find.

You are so prideful you think someone with two doctorates and fluent latin knows less than you do about Trent. This is absolutely pathetic and ridiculous, you have forgotten your place in society, and it is a very small place far below that of St Alphonsus.
Show me in Trent where it lays out the requirements for BOD.  Hint: It doesn't.  Ergo, St Alphonsus' OPINIONS on the requirement for a "perfect act of contrition" are just that, an OPINION.  Because NOWHERE does Trent tell us (i.e. Church Authority) how, when, to whom, and by what means, does BOD apply to a particular person.

St Thomas says explicit faith is necessary in the Incarnation/Trinity.  
St Bellarmine doesn't give any details.
St Alphonsus says an implicit faith is adequate (but does not mention the Incarnation/Trinity) and then says that a "perfect act of contrition" is necessary.

So all 3 of these Doctors' views differ.  You don't see a problem with that?  I do.  It's a MAJOR PROBLEM.  If BOD were a doctrine, then all of these people would AGREE ON THE DETAILS.

Do the catechisms provide the bridge?  No, they offer the same ambiguous notion.  No details.  Some catechisms even are MORE AMBIGUOUS, talking about implicit faith, etc.  All of this contradicts St Thomas.

So where, in the entire catholic world, is there ONE SOURCE to tell ANYONE how, to whom, when, where and why BOD works?  Hint: It doesn't exist.

Ergo, BOD is a theory.  Might be as close to doctrine-without-being-doctrine as you can get, but doctrines don't have unanswered questions.  BOD does.  A lot of them.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2026, 01:40:14 PM »
I already said it but I will repeat in case you didn't see it.

"Trent council says :"C. iv. Quibus verbis justificationis impii descriptio insinuatur, ut si translatio… Quae quidem translatio post Evangelium promulgatum, sine lavacro regenerationis aut ejus voto, fieri non potest, sicut scriptum est : Nisi quis renatus fuerit exaqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei."

Trent council says "aut" which means OR it does not mean and. That means, we need either baptism OR the desire of baptism, we do not need baptism AND the desire of baptism. If Trent's council wanted to say that we needed both, it would use the word "et" not "aut"."
Since you have skipped over my major points, here they are again:


If someone wants to believe in St Thomas' BOD, which requires EXPLICIT belief in the Incarnation/Trinity BY A CATECHUMEN, then go ahead.  I see no problem.

But that's NOT what Fr Feeney was arguing against.

-----

St Thomas says explicit faith is necessary in the Incarnation/Trinity. 
St Bellarmine doesn't give any details.
Trent echoes St Thomas, because for BOD to work, you have to fulfill all the requirements for normal baptism (i.e. explicit faith, etc).
St Alphonsus says an implicit faith is adequate (but does not mention the Incarnation/Trinity) and then says that a "perfect act of contrition" is necessary.

So all 3 of these Doctors' views differ, and with Trent.  You don't see a problem with that?  I do.  It's a MAJOR PROBLEM.  If BOD were a doctrine, then all of these people would AGREE ON THE DETAILS.

St Alphonsus weakened the requirements.  I don't see why.  That's why I started this thread.  His requirements contradict St Thomas/Trent.  

Offline Stubborn

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Re: St Alphonsus' Baptism Contradiction
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2026, 01:56:15 PM »
Can you provide any post where I lied?

Otherwise, calumny is a mortal sin and you have just sentenced yourself to death with your own mouth.
Pretty much you can pick anyone of your posts, here's one.

1) I do not deny explicit teachings of popes, but you do.

2) You say the Church teaches "of BOD/BOB (which apply only in extremely rare and specific circuмstances)" - which is a complete and total lie. You will NEVER find any official teaching of the Church that uses either term or even mentions a "Baptism of Desire" or "a Baptism of Blood" BECAUSE the Church does not teach them, the Church teaches the sacraments are necessary unto salvation, and the Church teaches whoever says otherwise is anathema - which makes you anathema.

So there's two lies I picked at random - your posts are full of 'em.