This is unfortunately going to have to be a long post, so those who want can skip it entirely, and it is in response to what you've said so far, Ladislaus, but before that, I just want to say if you read the Little Flower's autobiography for yourself, you will be left in no doubt that she is speaking about the difference in degree of glory of the Saints in heaven.
I notice that none of those who responded answered any of my simple questions. I ask again,
1. If I may ask you, please explain to me how the just of the Old Testament, including non-members of Israel which prefigured the Church, had supernatural faith?
2. If you would even ponder this question for yourselves, you'd at least refine your thinking, even if you don't agree. Another thing you should ask yourselves is what distinguished righteous Gentiles from unrighteous Gentiles. How did the just among them acquire supernatural faith and charity? What was it that made the unjust truly wicked and obstinate in comparison?
Anyway, what Our Lord explained to St. Catherine of Sienna is nothing different than what St. John the Apostle of love says in Sacred Scripture about the water, the spirit, the blood, the triune baptism, how it is like the Triune God, and how Jesus Christ came not in water only but in water and blood. When St. Thomas speaks on the unity of baptism in the baptism of water, of spirit and of blood, he discourses in the same sense.
I am still slightly stupefied one can read God say something so clearly and so wonderfully to St. Catherine and dismiss it.
And as for some of the comments it's amazing so many disdain such a Saintly soul. Please tell me you all when was the last time you knelt before the Divine Infant in prayer and begged Him to send suffering and trials to you for the salvation of hardened criminals? When that you mourned and wept for those who are perishing, praying night and day for them? And you cast doubt on the zeal these holy women, worthy daughters of the Blessed Virgin, and spouses of Christ, had for the salvation of souls?
To continue, St. Paul says Gentiles who do the law are justified and show by nature the things contained in the law are written in their hearts. St. James says those who love have fulfilled the law. St. John says he who loves is born of God, which as we know is the Biblical way of speaking of the spiritual regeneration that is the proper effect of baptism. The Lord in the same way says those who love Him receive the indwelling of the Holy Trinity. The example of St. Peter and Cornelius is very instructive also.
It is possible to multiply indefinitely authorities from Sacred Scripture, Our Lord Himself, the Apostles, the Fathers, the Saints and Doctors of the Church and the Magisterium of the Church both extraordinary and ordinary for what I'm going to say, but I want to begin by delving into the theology of it, since that is where in my opinion you err.
I'm slightly surprised how someone who has had an education in an SSPX seminary can have an intellectual attraction to Feeneyism. There is a reason Feeneyism is almost non-existent among priests though it has a great deal of lay adherents.
So then, Ladislaus, tell me what you want to discuss in this thread. The issue of Feeneyism itself or specifically Vatican II. (The Conciliar Catechism says, citing Vatican II "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." which is about right and the same as the traditional teaching) Each of that would take another thread. I've already agreed EENS isn't the issue when it comes to Vatican II.
I deny the "premise of a divided Church" follows from traditional ecclesiology at all, I will tell you why once you tell me how we proceed. I do agree though with the other point you said that none of those who are justified and saved are non-Catholics formally. No non-Catholics can be saved. Supernatural faith is the one and Catholic faith and it exists in the whole Church as in the mind of a single subject entirely one. But that does not mean it can be more explicit in some of Her members more closely united to Her than in others.
Their adherence to a false sect is merely material, St. Augustine is one of the many Saints and Fathers who says this is quite possible of those raised in heresy. So much more of those raised in schism.
The point about being inside but not a member as I've explained is something that is demonstrable from the Fathers, was adopted by Florence when they repeated St. Fulgentius' professsion verbatim, and as already mentioned is clearly evinced by the example of the just who were non-members of Israel.
One can be inside a vine or a tree without being united to it as a branch. This is a Biblical analogical description of the Church. So the inside but not a member is not incoherent, nor does it deny that the structure of the tree is perfectly complete in itself. These are two different types of union, the the former are much less secure, and receive much less an influx of grace than the absolute superabundance we receive in comparison.
So to continue with Feeneyism and to show why Archbishop Lefebvre's, Bishop Fellay's and the other opinions are at least defensible:
What matters for supernatural faith and charity is the universal will to believe all that God has revealed (necessary for faith in him) and the universal will to do all that God has commanded (necessary for love of Him). True heretics sin against faith and true schismatics sin against charity when this will in them is lacking. They manifest it when these articles of faith or the necessity of the subjection to the Roman Pontiff are sufficiently proposed to them and they reject it.
The notion of a universal will should not be difficult to understand. Contrition for example is only possible when we have a truly universal will to confess every sin we have committed without exception even if we are ignorant of some specific sins in particular.
And thanks be to God for this mercy toward us, else we would be indefinitely tormented by hateful scruples. So much the more BOD is an act at once of divine Justice and divine Mercy (divine Justice also because those saved by it will experience a purgatory proportionate to the depth of remission of temporal punishment that remains to be remitted, while we receive a plenary remission in sacramental baptism) and if properly understood would be accepted as such.
Moreover, baptism is in no way undermined both because contrition itself is very difficult to attain even for lifelong Catholics, as Trent plainly says. So much the worse for the unhappy souls raised in heresy or schism. And just as the fact that it is possible to receive the sacrament of penance in desire (for the record Trent says for the record that the sacrament penance is necessary in the same way baptism is necessary, and St. Thomas says that the sacrament of baptism is said to be necessary in the sense that its sacramental effect at least in desire i.e. justification is necessary, and Canon Law says the same, but you know that) in no way undermines the necessity of the sacrament, but rightly understood, rather fortifies and strengthens it, it is the same here.
And as for these souls in material heresy or schism, when the necessity to profess the faith in its entirety or to return to Catholic communion is sufficiently proposed, either what has hitherto been desired implicitly must be desired explicitly, manifesting good faith, or the fact that the universal will to believe all that God revealed and do all that He has commanded was lacking, obstinacy and formal heresy or schism, is manifested.
Just as we can in fact repent of some particular sins implicitly by having a universal will to confess all, so we can believe some articles of faith implicitly by having a universal will to profess all provided in each case we confess or profess what we are bound to know. In fact, even informed Catholics don't believe explicitly every article of faith, like as yet undefined ones. And thus supernatural faith and charity could conceivably continue to exist in some baptized individuals raised in good faith.
Topic: SSPX and Bergolio Teach Same Salvation for Anyone (Read 6551 times)