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Author Topic: SJB on BOD of the Catechumen  (Read 4292 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2013, 04:51:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    From bowler's only source:

    Quote
    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.



    Do you think that the part of the catechism teaching you bolded is supposed to teach a BOD?
     
    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.
    The "unforeseen accident" can easily be that the priest who was supposed to administer the sacrament that day was hit by a car.

    When reading what is written, the catechism teaches that their contrition, and desire will *avail* them to *grace and righteousness* - IOW, it will put them "in the way" of grace - or to put it another way, before they can be baptized, the person *must* be in the way of grace via the proper intention - i.e. they must "desire" to be baptized prior to actually receiving the sacrament.

    What you did, was take what the catechism teaches regarding the Desire for Baptism, and changed it into teaching a Baptism of Desire.

    To avoid doing that from now on, read what is written as it is written.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Memento

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »
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  • Stubborn:

    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.



    I guess you missed this:
    the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.











    Offline Stubborn

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 05:46:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    Stubborn:
    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.



    I guess you missed this:
    the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.


    I guess I did miss that.

    Do you suppose that because that bible has that commentary that it means the catechism snip does not mean what it says?



     




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Memento

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 05:57:06 PM »
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  • If  I understand your question correctly Stubborn, I would say that the Catechism of the Council of Trent means more than you understand it to mean. The  Rheims commentary was also written right around the same time. Those Fathers were explaining the faith to counteract the errors of the Protestants. If you read that commentary you will see it explains and defends the faith against the heretics.


    Offline SJB

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 06:04:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Memento
    Stubborn:
    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.



    I guess you missed this:
    the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.


    I guess I did miss that.

    Do you suppose that because that bible has that commentary that it means the catechism snip does not mean what it says?


    What is quite possible is that you misunderstand the Catechism. Do you deny the possibility that you may be trusting yourself to the point of denying what has been explained for hundreds and hundreds of years?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline bowler

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 06:11:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    How about the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.


    Quote
    Find a person who limits his belief in BOD to a catechumen or a martyr for the Faith, and you have someone with common sense. That person can have the confidence that he is supported by St. Thomas and many other Saints and Doctors after the time of St. Thomas. (I've only known one person who only restricted his belief in BOD to these examples. There should be many more out there, but there just isn't. I think it is because it BOD is like a harmless drug that leads to stronger drugs)

    Find a person who believes in John 3:15  and the dogmas on EENS and baptism as they are written, literally that is, and you have a person with the support of the Fathers, doctors and saints that came before St. Thomas. And you can read the dogmas as they were intended to be read, as the final word.

    Or you can go with the BOD Hypocrites (and believe that any unbaptized person can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or be martyred for the faith, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity) and thus go against ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints and the Athanasian Creed. In other words become a fool


    Thanks for the quote. It is talking about martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism.  Do you believe that martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament are required for salvation? Or do you reject that teaching and believe that believe that any unbaptized person can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or be martyred for the faith, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity?

    Offline SJB

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 06:47:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Thanks for the quote. It is talking about martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism.  Do you believe that martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament are required for salvation? Or do you reject that teaching and believe that believe that any unbaptized person can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or be martyred for the faith, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity?

    The quote (and others provided) destroys your "understanding" of Trent.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Memento

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #22 on: September 26, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »
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  • Bowler,
    I believe what the Church teaches. Here is an excerpt from an important Catholic textbook. It seems to explain how far the Church will go on those particular subjects:
    on martyrdom:

    "The theological concept of martyrdom (greek{m'artus}, a
    witness) includes three separate and distinct elements, viz.:
    (1) Violent death or extremely cruel treatment which would naturally
    cause death, irrespective of whether the victim actually dies or is
    saved by a miracle, as was St. John the Evangelist when he escaped
    unharmed from the cauldron of boiling oil into which he had been thrown
    by order of the Emperor Domitian. (2) The endurance of death or violence
    for the sake of Christ, i.e. for the Catholic faith or for the
    practice of any supernatural virtue. Hence the so-called ``martyrs'' of
    revolution or heresy are not martyrs in the theological sense of the
    term. (3) Patient suffering, endured voluntarily and without resistance.
    This excludes soldiers who fall in battle, even though they fight in
    defence of the faith.[39]"
    - see below for the whole text plus footnotes

    On implicit or explicit desire: see most of what is found below. The footnotes are quite important.

    (This book can also be found online)
    ______________________________________________________________________________
    chapter from Pohle/Preuss, The Sacraments, Vol. I:

    CHAPTER II
    THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

    Baptism is necessary for salvation, but, under certain conditions, the
    place of Baptism by water (baptismus fluminis) may be supplied by
    Baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) or by Baptism of blood
    (baptismus sanguinis). We shall explain the Catholic teaching on
    this point in three theses.


    Thesis I: Baptism is necessary for salvation.

    This proposition embodies an article of faith.

    Proof. We have, in a previous treatise,[1] distinguised between two
    kinds of necessity: necessity of means (necessitas medii) and
    necessity of precept (necessitas praecepti).

    Since Baptism is necessary for infants no less than for adults,
    it follows that all men need it as a means of salvation (necessitas
    medii), and that for adults it is also of precept (necessitas
    praecepti). However, since the Baptism of water may sometimes be
    supplied by the Baptism of desire or the Baptism of blood, Baptism of
    water is not absolutely necessary as a means of salvation but merely in
    a hypothetical way. That Baptism is necessary for salvation is an
    expressly defined dogma, for the Council of Trent declares: ``If any one
    saith that Baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation, let
    him be anathema.''[2]

    a) This can be conclusively proved from Holy Scripture. Our Lord's
    command: ``Teach ye all nations, baptizing them,''[3] plainly imposes on
    all men the duty to receive Baptism, as is evidenced by a parallel
    passage in St. Mark: ``Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel
    to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved:
    but he that believeth not shall be condemned.''[4] Here we have Christ's
    plain and express declaration that while unbelief is sufficient to incur
    damnation, faith does not ensure salvation unless it is accompanied by
    Baptism.

    That Baptism is necessary as a means of salvation (necessitate
    medii) follows from John III, 5: ``Unless a man be born again[5] of
    water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.''
    Spiritual regeneration is more than a mere keeping of the Commandments;
    it involves a complete transformation of the soul. As no one can come
    into this world without being born, so no one can enter Heaven unless he
    is supernaturally reborn. Hence Baptism is, ordinarily, a necessary
    means of salvation.[6]

    b) This teaching is upheld by Tradition.

    The African bishops assembled at the Council of Carthage (416),
    in a letter to Innocent I, complain of the cruelty of the Pelagians, who
    condemn their children to eternal death by refusing them Baptism.[7]

    Tertullian writes: ``The precept is laid down that without Baptism
    salvation is attainable by none, chiefly on the ground of that
    declaration of the Lord, who says: Unless a man be born of water, he
    hath not eternal life.''[8]

    St. Basil, at a somewhat later date, says: ``If you have not passed
    through the water, you will not be freed from the cruel tyranny of the
    devil.''[9]

    This belief of the primitive Church was embodied, as it were, in the
    catechumenate, an institution which lasted well into the Middle Ages.
    ``Catechumeni''[10] was a name applied to adults who were under
    instruction with a view to receiving Baptism. Until recently they were
    believed to have been divided into three classes, viz.:
    audientes (greek{>akro'wmenoi}; genuflectentes
    (greek{g'onu kl'inontes}); and competentes
    (greek{futiz'omenoi}). This theory was based upon a misunderstood canon
    of a council of Neocaesarea (between 314 and 325). Other theologians
    thought that there were two classes, catechumeni and
    competentes or electi. But this distinction is equally
    untenable, because St. Cyril of Jerusalem and other Fathers number the
    competentes, or candidates for Baptism, among the faithful
    (fideles, greek{pisto'i}). To the late Professor Funk belongs
    the credit of having shown that the catechumens were all in one
    class.[11] But even though we now discard the three (or two) stages of
    preparation, this does not alter the fact that the ecclesiastical
    authorities were at great pains properly to instruct converts, so as to
    make them well-informed and loyal Catholics. The catechumens had to pass
    seven consecutive examinations (septem scrutinia) before they
    were admitted to Baptism. Besides, for a whole week after Baptism they
    wore white garments, which they put off on Low Sunday (Dominica in
    albis, scil. deponendis). Had not the Church been so firmly convinced
    of the importance and necessity of Baptism, she would certainly not have
    surrounded this Sacrament with so many imposing ceremonies nor spent so
    much time and labor in preparing candidates for its reception. The very
    existence of the catechumenate in the primitive Church proves that
    Baptism was always regarded as a matter of spiritual life and
    death.[12]

    c) It is a moot question among theologians at what time Baptism became a
    necessary means of salvation.

    Even if it were true, as some older writers hold, that express
    belief in the Messias and the Trinity was a necessary condition of
    salvation already in the Old Testament, Baptism certainly was not,
    either as a means or in consequence of a positive precept.[13] For those
    living under the New Law the necessity of Baptism, according to the
    Tridentine Council,[14] began with ``the promulgation of the Gospel.''
    When was the Gospel promulgated? Was it promulgated for all nations on
    the day of our Lord's Ascension, or did its precepts go into effect only
    when they were actually preached to each? Were we to adopt the latter
    assumption, we should have to admit that the necessity of Baptism, and
    consequently the duty of receiving the Sacrament, was limited both with
    regard to time and place, e.g. that the law did not go into
    effect in Palestine until the Gospel had been sufficiently promulgated
    throughout that country, which required some thirty years or more. To be
    entirely consistent we should have to admit further that Baptism did not
    become necessary for salvation in the farther parts of the Roman Empire
    until about the close of the third century, in the Western hemisphere
    until the sixteenth century, in Central Africa or the Congo Free State
    until the beginning of the twentieth. This would practically mean that
    millions of pagans after the time of Christ were in precisely the same
    position as the entire human race before the atonement, and that their
    children could be saved by a mere ``Sacrament of nature.''[15] Though
    this way of reasoning appears quite legitimate in the light of the
    Tridentine declaration, it is open to serious theological objections. In
    the first place, we must not arbitrarily limit the validity of our
    Saviour's baptismal mandate. Secondly, we cannot assume that for more
    than a thousand years the children of pagan nations were better off in
    the matter of salvation than innumerable infants of Christian parentage,
    who were unable to avail themselves of the ``Sacrament of nature.''
    Third, the assumption under review practically renders illusory the
    necessity of Baptism through a period extending over many centuries. To
    obviate these difficulties we prefer the more probable opinion that the
    law making Baptism necessary for salvation was promulgated on Ascension
    day or, if you will, on Pentecost, simultaneously for the whole world,
    and at once became binding upon all nations.[16]

    Thesis II: In adults the place of Baptism by water can be supplied in
    case of urgent necessity by the so-called Baptism of desire.

    This proposition may be qualified as ``doctrina catholica.''

    Proof. The Baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) differs from the
    Baptism of water (baptismus fluminis) in the same way in which
    spiritual differs from actual Communion. If the desire for Baptism is
    accompanied by perfect contrition, we have the so-called boptismus
    flaminis, which forthwith justifies the sinner, provided, of course,
    that the desire is a true votum sacramenti, i.e., that it
    implies a firm resolve to receive the Sacrament as soon as opportunity
    offers.

    The Tridentine Council pronounces anathema against those who assert
    ``that the Sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation,
    but superfluous, and that without them, or without the desire thereof,
    men obtain of God through faith alone the grace of justification.''[17]

    At a later date the Holy See formally condemned a proposition
    extracted from the writings of Bajus, which says that ``Perfect and
    sincere charity can exist both in catechumens and in penitents without
    the remission of sins.''[18] Hence the Church teaches that perfect
    charity does remit sin, even in catechumens or in penitents, i.e.
    before the reception of the Sacrament, yet not without the Sacrament, as
    we have seen in Thesis I. Nothing remains, therefore, but to say that
    the remission of sins through perfect charity is due to the fact that
    such charity implies the desire of the Sacrament. Indeed the only
    Sacraments here concerned are Baptism and Penance. The Council of Trent
    [19] explains that primal justification (from original sin) is
    impossible without the laver of regeneration or the desire thereof, and
    [20] that forgiveness of personal sin must not be expected from perfect
    charity without at least the desire of the Sacrament of Penance.

    a) That perfect contrition effects immediate justification is apparent
    from the case of David,[21] that of Zachaeus,[22] and our Lord's own
    words to one of the robbers crucified with Him on Calvary: ``This day
    thou shalt be with me in paradise.''[23]

    The Prophet Ezechiel assured the Old Testament Jews in the name
    of Jehovah: ``If the wicked do penance for all his sins, ... he shall
    live, and shall not die.''[24] In the New Testament our Lord Himself
    says of the penitent Magdalen: ``Many sins are forgiven her, because she
    hath loved much.''[25] Since, however, God has ordained Baptism as a
    necessary means of salvation,[26] perfect contrition, in order to obtain
    forgiveness of sins, must include the desire of the Sacrament. Cfr. John
    XIV, 23: ``If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will
    love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with
    him.''[27]

    b) According to primitive Tradition, the Baptism of desire, when based
    on charity, effects justification, though not without some ideal
    relation to the Baptism of water.

    The anonymous author of the treatise De Rebaptismate,
    which was composed about 256 against the practice championed by St.
    Cyprian,[28] calls attention to the fact that the centurion Cornelius
    and his family were justified without the Sacrament,[29] and adds: ``No
    doubt men can be baptized without water, in the Holy Ghost, as you
    observe that these were baptized, before they were baptized with water,
    ... since they received the grace of the New Covenant before the bath,
    which they reached later.''[30]

    The most striking Patristic pronouncement on the subject is found in St.
    Ambrose's sermon on the death of the Emperor Valentinian II, who had
    died as a catechumen. ``I hear you express grief,'' he says, ``because
    he [Valentinian] did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what
    else is there in us except the will and petition? But he had long
    desired to be initiated before he came to Italy, and expressed his
    intention to be baptized by me as soon as possible, and it was for this
    reason, more than for any other, that he hastened to me. Has he not,
    therefore, the grace which he desired? Has he not received that for
    which he asked? Surely, he received [it] because he asked [for
    it].''[31]

    St. Augustine repeatedly speaks of the power inherent in the desire for
    Baptism. ``I do not hesitate,'' he says in his treatise De
    Baptisma against the Donatists, ``to place the Catholic catechumen,
    who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic.... The
    centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who
    had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with
    the Holy Ghost, while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an
    unclean spirit.''[32] A seemingly contradictory passage occurs in the
    same author's Homilies on the Gospel of St. John. ``No matter what
    progress a catechumen may make,'' it reads, ``he still carries the
    burden of iniquity, which is not taken away until he has been
    baptized.''[33] The two Augustinian passages quoted can, however, be
    easily reconciled. The command to receive the Baptism of water exists
    also for the catechumens and ceases to be binding only when there is an
    impossibility. ``I find,'' says the same author, ``that not only
    martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of Baptism,
    but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse can not be had to
    the celebration of the mystery of Baptism for want of time.''[34] St.
    Bernard invokes the authority of SS. Ambrose and Augustine in support of
    his teaching that a man may be saved by the Baptism of desire if death
    or some other insuperable obstacle prevents him from receiving the
    Baptism of water.[35] The Popes decided many practical cases of
    conscience by this rule. Thus Innocent III unhesitatingly declared that
    a certain deceased priest, who had never been baptized, had undoubtedly
    obtained forgiveness of original sin and reached Heaven, and that the
    sacrifice of the Mass might be offered up for the repose of his
    soul.[36]

    The question whether the votum baptismi accompanying perfect
    contrition must be explicit, is to be decided in the same way as the
    parallel problem whether pagans, in order to be justified, must have an
    express belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation, or whether an
    implicit belief in these mysteries is sufficient.[37] The more common
    opinion holds that the votum implicitum is all that is required.
    This ``implicit desire'' may be defined as ``a state of mind in which a
    man would ardently long for Baptism if he knew that it is necessary for
    salvation.''[38]

    Thesis III: Martyrdom (baptismus sanguinis) can also supply the place
    of Baptism.

    Though the Church has never formally pronounced on the subject, the
    teaching of Scripture and Tradition is sufficiently clear to enable us
    to regard this thesis as ``doctrina certa.''

    Proof. The Baptism of blood, or martyrdom, is the patient endurance of
    death, or of extreme violence apt to cause death, for the sake of Jesus
    Christ.

    The theological concept of martyrdom (greek{m'artus}, a
    witness) includes three separate and distinct elements, viz.:
    (1) Violent death or extremely cruel treatment which would naturally
    cause death, irrespective of whether the victim actually dies or is
    saved by a miracle, as was St. John the Evangelist when he escaped
    unharmed from the cauldron of boiling oil into which he had been thrown
    by order of the Emperor Domitian. (2) The endurance of death or violence
    for the sake of Christ, i.e. for the Catholic faith or for the
    practice of any supernatural virtue. Hence the so-called ``martyrs'' of
    revolution or heresy are not martyrs in the theological sense of the
    term. (3) Patient suffering, endured voluntarily and without resistance.
    This excludes soldiers who fall in battle, even though they fight in
    defence of the faith.[39]

    Since martyrdom effects justification in infants as well as adults, its
    efficacy must be conceived after the manner of an opus operatum,
    and in adults presupposes a moral preparation or disposition, consisting
    mainly of faith accompanied by imperfect contrition.[40] It does not,
    however, require perfect contrition, else there would be no essential
    distinction between Baptism of blood and Baptism of desire.[41]


    a) The supernatural efficacy of martyrdom may be deduced from our Lord's
    declaration in the Gospel of St. Matthew: ``Every one that shall confess
    me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in
    Heaven,''[42] and: ``He that findeth his life, shall lose it; and he
    that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.''[43] If a man gives up
    his life for Jesus, he will surely be rewarded. ``Greater love than this
    no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.''[44]
    Consequently, martyrdom must be regarded as equivalent to Baptism for
    the unbaptized, and as a means of justification for the baptized.

    b) The ancient Church explicitly interpreted Christ's teaching in this
    sense, as is evident from the honors she paid to the martyrs.

    Tertullian says: ``We have, indeed, likewise a second font,
    itself one [with the former], of blood to wit.... This is the Baptism
    which both stands in lieu of the fontal bathing when that has not been
    received, and restores it when lost.''[45] St. Cyprian declares that the
    catechumens who suffer martyrdom for Christ's sake, go to Heaven. ``Let
    them know ... that the catechumens are not deprived of Baptism, since
    they are baptized with the most glorious and supreme Baptism of
    blood.''[46] St. Augustine expresses himself in a similar manner: ``To
    all those who die confessing Christ, even though they have not received
    the laver of regeneration, [martyrdom] will prove as effective for the
    remission of sins as if they were washed in the baptismal font.''[47]

    The Greek Church held the same belief. St. Cyril of Jerusalem writes:
    ``If a man does not receive Baptism, he hath not salvation, the martyrs
    alone excepted, who attain to Heaven without water.''[48] And St.
    Chrysostom: ``As those baptized in water, so also those who suffer
    martyrdom, are washed clean, [the latter] in their own blood.''[49]

    The primitive Church venerated in a special manner all those who
    suffered martyrdom for the faith, the unbaptized as well as the
    baptized. Among the earliest martyrs to whom public honors were paid,
    are St. Emerentiana, a foster-sister of St. Agnes, and the Holy
    Innocents, of whom St. Cyprian, following St. Irenaeus,[50] says that
    though they were too young to fight for Christ, they were old enough to
    gain the crown of martyrdom.[51]

    c) The Baptism of blood is more perfect than the Baptism of desire, and,
    in a certain sense, even excels Baptism by water.

    $alpha$) It is more perfect than the Baptism of desire, both
    in essence and effect, because it justifies infants as well as adults
    quasi ex opere operato, whereas the Baptism of desire is
    efficacious ex opera operantis, and in adults only. Martyrdom,
    however, is not a Sacrament because it is no ecclesiastical rite and has
    not been instituted as an ordinary means of grace. It is superior to the
    Baptism of desire in this respect, that, like ordinary Baptism, it not
    only forgives sins and sanctifies the sinner, but remits all temporal
    punishments. St. Augustine says: ``It would be an affront to pray for a
    martyr; we should [rather] commend ourselves to his prayers.''[52] Hence
    the famous dictum of Pope Innocent III: ``He who prays for a martyr
    insults him.''[53] St. Thomas teaches: ``Suffering endured for Christ's
    sake ... cleanses [the soul] of all guilt, both venial and mortal,
    unless the will be found actually attached to sin.''[54]

    $beta$) Martyrdom is inferior to Baptism in so far as it is not a
    Sacrament, and consequently neither imprints a character nor confers the
    right of receiving the other Sacraments. It excels Baptism in that it
    not only remits all sins, together with the temporal punishments due to
    them, but likewise confers the so-called aureole.[55] It is superior to
    Baptism also in this that it more perfectly represents the passion and
    death of Christ. Cfr. Mark X, 38: ``Can you drink of the chalice that I
    drink of, or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am
    baptized?''----``Let him who is deemed worthy of martyrdom,'' say the
    Apostolic Constitutions,[56] ``rejoice in the Lord for obtaining such a
    great crown.... Though he be a catechumen, let him depart without
    sadness; for the suffering he endures for Christ will be to him more
    effective than Baptism.''[57] St. Bonaventure explains this as follows:
    ``The reason why [martyrdom] has greater efficacy is that in the Baptism
    of blood there is an ampler and a fuller imitation and profession of the
    Passion of Christ than in the Baptism of water.... In the Baptism of
    water death is signified; in the Baptism of blood it is incurred.[58]

    [1] Pohle-Preuss, Grace, Actual and Habitual, pp. 281 sqq.

    [2] Sess. VII, De Bapt., can. 5: ``Si quis dixerit, baptismum
    liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem, anathema sit.
    (Denzinger-Bannwart, n. 861)

    [3] Matth. XXVIII, 19.

    [4] Mark XVI, 15 sq.

    [5] greek{>e`an tis gennhq~|h}.

    [6] V. Theses II and III, infra.

    [7] ``Parvulos etiam baptizandos negant ac sic eos mortifera ista
    doctrina in aeternum necant.''

    [8] De Bapt., c. 12: ``[1]Praescrebitur nemini sine baptismo
    competere salutem et ex illa maxime pronuntiatione Domini, qui ait: Nisi
    natus quis ex aquq fuerit, non habet vitam aeternam.[/i]''

    [9] Hom. in Bapt., n. 2.---Cfr. A. Seitz, Die
    Heilsnotwendigkeit der Kirche nach der altchristlichen Literatur biz zur
    Zeit des hl. Augustinus, pp. 280 sqq., Freiburg 1903. On Infant
    Baptism, v. infra, Ch. IV, Sect. 2, pp. 268 sqq.

    [10] greek{Kathco'umenoi}, from greek{kathce~in}, to instruct orally.
    On the catechumenate see T. B. Scannell, s.v. ``Catechumen,'' in
    Vol. III of the Catholic Encyclopedia.

    [11]F. X. Funk, Kirchengeschichtliche Abhandlungen und
    Untersuchungen, Vol. I, pp. 209 sqq., Paderborn 1897.

    [12] Cfr. J. Mayer, Geschichte des Katechumenates und der Katechese
    in den ersten sechs Jahrhunderten, Kempten 1868; P. Gobel,
    Geschichte der Katechese im Abendlande vom Verfalle des
    Katechumenates bis zum Ende des Mittelalters, Kempten 1880; T. B.
    Scarmell in the Catholic Encyclopedia, l.c.

    [13] On the justification of adults and children under the Old Testament
    and among the pre·Christian Gentiles, v. supra, p. 19 sqq.

    [14] Sess. VI, cap. 4: ``... quae quidem translatio [i.e.
    iustificatio] post Evangelium promulgatum sine lavacro
    regenerationis aut eius votu fieri non potest.''
    (Denzinger-Bannwart, n. 796).

    [15] V. supra, p. 18 sqq.

    [16] Cfr. Bellarmine, De Bapt., 5; Billuart, De Bapt.,
    dissert. 1, art. 2, S{} 2. H. Hurter holds a different opinion
    (Compendium Theol. Dogmat., Vol. III, 12th ed., n. 317, Innsbruck
    1909).

    [17] Sess. VII, De Sacram., can. 4: ``Si quis dixerit,
    sacramenta Novae Legis non esse ad salutem necessaria, sed superflua, et
    sine eis aut eorum veto per solam fidem homines a Deo gratiam
    justificationis adipisci, ... anathema sit.'' (Denzinger-Bannwart,
    n. 847).

    [18] Prop. 31: ``Caritas perfecta et sincera ... tam in catechumenis
    quam in poenitentibus potest esse sine remissione peccatarum.''
    (Denzinger-Bannwart, n. 1031).

    [19] Sess. VI, cap. 4. (Note 14, p. 242, supra).

    [20] Sess. XIV, cap. 4. Cfr. the dogmatic treatise on the Sacrament of
    Penance.

    [21] Cfr. Ps. 50.

    [22] Cfr. Luke XIX, 9.

    [23] Luke XXIII, 43.

    [24] Ez. XVIII, 21: ``Si autem impius egerit poenitentiam ab omnibbus
    peccatis suis, ... vit^a vivet non morietur.''

    [25] Luc. VII, 47: ``Remittuntur peccata multa, qoaniam dilexit
    multum.''

    [26] V. supra, Thesis I.

    [27] Other Scriptural texts in our treatise on the Sacrament of Penance.

    [28] This treatise was perhaps written by Bishop Ursinus (cfr. Gennad.,
    De Vir. Illustr., c. 27).

    [29] Acts X. 44 sqq.

    [30] ``Atque hoc non erit dubium, in Spiritu Sancto homines posse
    sine aqua baptizari, sicut animadvertis baptizatos hos, prius aqu^a
    baptizareutur, ... quandoquidem sine lavacro, quod postea adepti sunt,
    gratiam repromissionis acceperint.'' (Migne, P. L., III,
    1889).

    [31] De Obitu Valent., n. 51 sq.: ``Audio vos dolere quod non
    acceperit sacramenta baptismatis Dicite mihi, quid aliud in nobis est
    nisi voluntas, nisi petitio? Atqui etiam dudum hoc voti habuit, ut et
    antequam in Italiam venisset initiaretur, et proxime baptizari se a me
    velle significavit, et ideo prae ceteris causis me accerseudum putavit.
    Non habet ergo gratiam quam desideravit? Non habet quam poposcit? Certe
    quia poposcit, accepit.''

    [32] De Bapt. c. Donat., IV, 21: ``Nec ergo dubito,
    catechumenum catholicuм divin^a caritate flagrantem haeretico baptizato
    anteponere.... Melior est enim centurio Cornelius nondum baptizatus
    Simone [Muga] baptizato; iste enim et ante baptismum S.
    Spiriiu impletus est, ille et post baptismum immundo spiritu impletus
    est.'' (Migne, P. L., XLIII, 171).

    [33] Tract. in Ioa., 13, n. 7: ``Quantumcunque catechumenus
    proficiat, adhuc sarcinam iniquitatis portat; non ill^a dimittitur,
    nisi quum venerit ad baptismum.''

    [34] De Bapt. c. Donat., IV, 22: ``Invenio, non tantum
    passionem pro Christo id quod ex baptismo deerat posse supplere, sed
    etiam fidem conversionemque cordis, si forte ad celebrandum mysterium in
    angustiis temporum succurri non potest.''

    [35] Ep. 77 ad Hug. Vict., n. 8: ``Ab his duabus columnis
    difficile avellor; cuм his, inquam, aut errare aut sapere me fateor,
    credens et ipse sol^a fide [i.e. format^a][/i] posse
    hominem salvari cuм desiderio percipiendi sacramentum, si tamen pio
    implendi desiderio mors anticipans seu alia quaecuмque vis invincibilis
    obviaverit.'' (Migne, Patr. Lat., CLXXXII, 1036).

    [36] 3 Decret., tit. 13, c. 2: ``Presbyterum quem sine unda
    baptismatis diem clausisse significasti, quia in sanctae matrix
    ecclesiae fide et Christi nominis confessione perseveraverit, ab
    originali peccata solutum et coelestis patriae gaudium esse adeptum
    asserimus incunctanter.''

    [37] On this question cfr. Pohle-Preuss, Grace, Actual and
    Habitual, pp. 182 sqq.

    [38] Oswald, Die Lehre von den hl. Sakramenten der kath. Kirche,
    Vol. I, 5th ed., p. 211. Cfr. A. Seitz, Die Heilsnotwendigkeit der
    Kirche nach der altchristlichen Literatur bis Zeit des hl.
    Augustinus, pp. 290 sqq., Freiburg 1903.

    [39] Cfr. Benedict XIV, De Serv. Dei Beatif., III, 11.

    [40] Cfr. Conc. Trid., Sess. XIV, cap. 7 (Denzinger-Bannwart, n.
    897).

    [41] V. supra, Thesis II.

    [42] Matth. X, 32.

    [43] Matth. X, 39. Cfr. Matth. XVI, 25; Luke IX, 24; XVII, 33.

    [44] John XV, 13.

    [45] De Bapt., c. 16: ``Est quidem nobis etiam secundum
    lavacrum, unum et ipsum, sanguinis scil.... Hic est baptismus, qui
    lavacrum et non acceptum repraesentat et perditum reddit.''

    [46] Ep. 73 ad Iubaian., n. 21, ed. Hartel, II, 735: ``Sciant
    ... catechumenos ... non privari baptismi sacramento, utppte qui
    baptizentur gloriosissimo et maximo sanguinis baptismo.''

    [47] De Civ. Dei, XIII, 7: ``Quicuмque etiam non recepta
    regenerationis lavacro pro Christi confessione moriuntur, tantum eis
    valet ad dimittenda peccata, quantum si abluerentur fonte
    baptismatis.
    ''

    [48] Catech., 3, n. 10 (Migne, P. G., XXXIII, 439).

    [49] Hom. in Martyr. Lucian., n. 2 (Migne, P. G., L. 522).
    Other apposite texts in Seitz, Die Heilsnotwendigkeit der Kirche,
    pp. 287 sqq.

    [50] Adv. Haeres., III, 16, 4. On the veneration of the martyrs
    in the early Church cfr. Pohle-Preuss, Mariology, pp. 144 sqq.,
    150.

    [51] Ep. 56 ad Thibarit.: ``Aetas necdum habilis ad pugnam
    idonea exstitit ad coronam.''

    [52] Serm., 159, c. I: ``Iniuria est pro martyre orare, cuius
    nos debemus oratianibus commendari.''

    [53] ``Iniuriam facit martyri, qui orat pro eo.'' Cap. ``cuм
    Marthae,'' De Celebr. Missae.

    [54] Summa Theol., 3a, qu. 87, art. 1, ad 2: ``Passio pro
    Christo suscepta ... purgat ab omni culpa et veniali et mortali, nisi
    actualiter voluntatem peccato invenerit inhaerentem.''

    [55] See Eschatology. On the three-fold aureola (martyrum,
    virginum, doctorum) v. St. Thomas, Summa
    Theol., 3a, qu. 96.

    [56] Probably composed in the beginning of the fourth century.

    [57] Const. Apost., V, 6: ``Qui martyrio dignus est habitus,
    laetiti^a in Domino efferatur, quod tantam coronam nactus fuerit....
    Quamvis catechumenus sit, sine tristitia excedat: passio enim pro
    Christo perlata erit ei sincerior baptismus.''

    [58] Comment. in Sent., IV, dist. 4, p. 2, art. 1, qu. 2, ad 2:
    ``Ratio autem quare efficaciam habet maiorem est, quoniam in baptismo
    sanguinis amplior et plenior est imitatio et professio passionis Christi
    quam in baptismo aquae.... In baptismo aquae mors significatur, hic
    autem suscipitur.'' For a fuller treatment of this topic cfr. Gihr,
    Die hl. Sakramente der kath. Kirche, Vol. I, 2nd ed., pp. 271
    sqq.


    Offline bowler

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #23 on: September 26, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »
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  • Momento,

    I read some of what you posted, I will print it and read the rest tonight. You have not answered my question. That is the third time I've asked you.

    Quote
    Thanks for the quote. It is talking about martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism.  Do you believe that martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament are required for salvation? Or do you reject that teaching and believe that believe that any unbaptized person can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or be martyred for the faith, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity?


    Offline bowler

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #24 on: September 26, 2013, 07:35:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Memento
    Stubborn:
    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.



    I guess you missed this:
    the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.


    I guess I did miss that.

    Do you suppose that because that bible has that commentary that it means the catechism snip does not mean what it says?


    What is quite possible is that you misunderstand the Catechism. Do you deny the possibility that you may be trusting yourself to the point of denying what has been explained for hundreds and hundreds of years?


    SJB,

    Are you still a believer in salvation for those that have no explicit desire to be Catholics, nor baptized, nor martyred, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation? If so, why are you even talking about Trent anything?

    People like Stubborn who understand John 3:5 as it is written, have more affinity with whatever interpretation you want to make of  Trent than you have with your belief. You reject Trent altogether. But you don't see that do you?

    Offline Jehanne

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #25 on: September 26, 2013, 07:50:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: bowler
    Thanks for the quote. It is talking about martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism.  Do you believe that martyrdom for the faith and explicit desire for the sacrament are required for salvation? Or do you reject that teaching and believe that believe that any unbaptized person can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be a Catholic, or be martyred for the faith, nor belief in Christ and the Trinity?

    The quote (and others provided) destroys your "understanding" of Trent.


    Hardly.

    Quote
    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."


    The Catechism lists two exceptions and only two exceptions, which I agree with 100%:

    1)  Martyrdom.   If someone is a true matyr for Jesus Christ, then, yes, that person would go straight to Paradise even without sacramental Baptism.

    2)  The vow for Baptism.  If someone has a true and sincere vow to be Baptized, then, yes, that individual, if they died before being Baptized, would go to Heaven, eventually.  Remember, Saint Thomas taught that such souls, unlike Category #1, would still have to suffer in Purgatory for the expiation of their sins.

    Nothing which the above catechism states abrogates at all the final opinion which Saint Augustine held to with respect to Baptism of Desire.  Besides, even if we were to accept that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, you can't point to a single reference which states how many such souls there are?  For instance, how many true martyrs have there been in the history of the Catholic Church would have even been remotely alleged to have died without sacramental Baptism?  Probably less than a dozen.  So, even if Baptism of Desire is possible without sacramental Baptism and apart from it, there is no scholastic theologian who held to such being at all common, and as Bowler has pointed out ad nauseam, no scholastic theologian ever applied such to Jews, pagans, and infidels.  Even Dante only placed two non-baptized individuals in Purgatory and another two in Paradise, and one of those, per the Golden Legend (the Roman Emperor Trajan) was piously believed to have been raised from the dead find hundred years or so after his death to have received Christian baptism!

    Even if Father Feeney was "wrong," he was still right, because there are hardly any groups, even within the traditional Catholic movement, who try as diligently as do the followers of Father Feeney to convert non-Catholics to the One True Faith.  In fact, Archbishop Lefebvre is on record as saying that a "sincere Buddhist" could be saved, implicitly, by being to the Catholic Church, which the scholastics would have regarded as being pure heresy.


    Offline Stubborn

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #26 on: September 27, 2013, 03:29:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Memento
    If  I understand your question correctly Stubborn, I would say that the Catechism of the Council of Trent means more than you understand it to mean. The  Rheims commentary was also written right around the same time. Those Fathers were explaining the faith to counteract the errors of the Protestants. If you read that commentary you will see it explains and defends the faith against the heretics.


    That does not answer my question.

    The commentary you reference was written some 20 years after the close of the Council which infallibly taught us:
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    And then says:
    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

    The catechism echoes the teachings with clearly taught explanations.

    Now, one would expect the commentary to agree with the teaching of Trent, but for whoever will admit it, we can see that either the commentary is right or the Council's infallible teaching and Trent's catechism explaining it is right. They simply cannot both be right.

    Per Canon II, unless we understand the words of Our Lord literally, we "wrest to some sort of metaphor" the words of Our Lord. A BOD "wrests the words of Our Lord" and is therefore is "some sort of metaphor". The sacrament is either  optional or the sacrament is necessary unto salvation - there is no other option in between.

    So which teaching do you reject as error, Trent's or the commentary?


    Quote from: SJB

    What is quite possible is that you misunderstand the Catechism. Do you deny the possibility that you may be trusting yourself to the point of denying what has been explained for hundreds and hundreds of years?


    That does not answer the question either.
    You plainly were attempting to make the catechism teach something it does not teach, and even after it was pointed out to you the plain fact that the catechism in no way is teaching what you wanted it to teach, you and Memento and presumably all other BODers still reject what it actually teaches, presumably in favor of teachings that Trent was correcting - not that I think you will actually answer but I'll ask any way - why?  

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jehanne

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #27 on: September 27, 2013, 06:51:07 AM »
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  • One could use simple syllogisms from the canons of Trent to demonstrate the absolute necessity of sacramental Baptism:

    Quote
    On the Necessity of Sacramental Baptism in Water by the Command of the One and Triune God.

    1) Major Premise -- The One and Triune God commands every human being, without exception, to be Baptized in Water:

    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, ex cathedra: "In these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5)."

    2) Minor Premise -- The Commandments of God are not impossible for us to fulfill:

    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 11 on Justification, ex cathedra: "...no one should make use of that rash statement forbidden under anathema by the Fathers, that the commandments of God are impossible to observe for a man who is justified. 'For God does not command impossibilities,' but by commanding admonishes you both to do what you can do, and to pray for what you cannot do."

    Alternate Minor Premise -- God is certainly capable of bringing about the fulfillment of His commands:

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 3, Chapter 1, On God the creator of all things, ex cathedra: "Everything that God has brought into being he protects and governs by his providence, which reaches from one end of the earth to the other and orders all things well. All things are open and laid bare before His eyes, even those which will be brought about by the free activity of creatures."

    3) Conclusion:

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you." (Father Feeney, Bread of Life, pg. 56)


    If the major and minor premises of the above syllogism are true, then the conclusion must follow.

    Offline SJB

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #28 on: September 27, 2013, 08:22:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Memento
    Stubborn:
    If you read what is written, you will see that:

    The catechism snip makes no mention of death *or* salvation.
    The catechism does not reward salvation via a BOD.
    The catechism does not even promise them grace and righteousness let alone salvation.



    I guess you missed this:
    the Commentary from the 1582 Rheims New Testament?

    ·     Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."

    It can read online in a copy of its original form: on old paper with antiquated script and in antiquated English.


    I guess I did miss that.

    Do you suppose that because that bible has that commentary that it means the catechism snip does not mean what it says?


    What is quite possible is that you misunderstand the Catechism. Do you deny the possibility that you may be trusting yourself to the point of denying what has been explained for hundreds and hundreds of years?


    SJB,

    Are you still a believer in salvation for those that have no explicit desire to be Catholics, nor baptized, nor martyred, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation? If so, why are you even talking about Trent anything?

    People like Stubborn who understand John 3:5 as it is written, have more affinity with whatever interpretation you want to make of  Trent than you have with your belief. You reject Trent altogether. But you don't see that do you?


    You're obviously not paying attention.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    SJB on BOD of the Catechumen
    « Reply #29 on: September 27, 2013, 08:27:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Memento
    If  I understand your question correctly Stubborn, I would say that the Catechism of the Council of Trent means more than you understand it to mean. The  Rheims commentary was also written right around the same time. Those Fathers were explaining the faith to counteract the errors of the Protestants. If you read that commentary you will see it explains and defends the faith against the heretics.


    That does not answer my question.

    The commentary you reference was written some 20 years after the close of the Council which infallibly taught us:
    CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
    And then says:
    CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

    The catechism echoes the teachings with clearly taught explanations.

    Now, one would expect the commentary to agree with the teaching of Trent, but for whoever will admit it, we can see that either the commentary is right or the Council's infallible teaching and Trent's catechism explaining it is right. They simply cannot both be right.

    Per Canon II, unless we understand the words of Our Lord literally, we "wrest to some sort of metaphor" the words of Our Lord. A BOD "wrests the words of Our Lord" and is therefore is "some sort of metaphor". The sacrament is either  optional or the sacrament is necessary unto salvation - there is no other option in between.

    So which teaching do you reject as error, Trent's or the commentary?


    Quote from: SJB

    What is quite possible is that you misunderstand the Catechism. Do you deny the possibility that you may be trusting yourself to the point of denying what has been explained for hundreds and hundreds of years?


    That does not answer the question either.
    You plainly were attempting to make the catechism teach something it does not teach, and even after it was pointed out to you the plain fact that the catechism in no way is teaching what you wanted it to teach, you and Memento and presumably all other BODers still reject what it actually teaches, presumably in favor of teachings that Trent was correcting - not that I think you will actually answer but I'll ask any way - why?  


    The point is that you can't find any authority who EXPLAINS what you claim to "understand." It is always YOUR explanation that is presented as evidence.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil