Author Topic: Shepherd of Hermas  (Read 841 times)

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Offline An even Seven

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Shepherd of Hermas
« on: September 13, 2017, 10:47:22 AM »
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  • Disclaimer: I would not posit this as proof or evidence of the necessity of Water Baptism.

    I thought this was interesting. It seems to not only speak of the necessity of water Baptism but also, in my opinion, says that those just of the Old Law in Limbo were also Baptized before they went to heaven. I bolded the parts I thought were particularly interesting. Your thoughts?

    The Shepherd of Hermas (Book III), Similitude 9, The Great Mysteries in the Building of the Militant and Triumphant Church, Chapter 16: "Explain to me a little further, sir, I said. What is it that you desire? he asked. Why, sir, I said, did these stonesascendout of the pit, and be applied to the building of the tower, after having borne thesespirits? They were obliged, he answered, toascendthrough water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received thesealof the Son of God. For, he continued, before a man bears the name of the Son of Godhe is dead; but when he receives thesealhe lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. Theseal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was thissealpreached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God. Why, sir, I asked, did the forty stones alsoascendwith them out of the pit, having already received theseal? Because, he said, these apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after falling asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, preached it not only to those who were asleep, but themselves also gave them thesealof the preaching. Accordingly they descended with them into the water, and againascended. [Butthese descended alive and rose up again alive; whereas they who had previously fallen asleep descended dead, but rose up again alive.] By these, then, were they quickened and made to know the name of the Son of God. For this reason also did theyascendwith them, and were fitted along with them into the building of the tower, and, untouched by thechisel, were built in along with them. For they slept in righteousness and in great purity, but only they had not thisseal.You have accordingly the explanation of these also.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 12:17:27 PM »
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  • I thought this was interesting. It seems to not only speak of the necessity of water Baptism but also, in my opinion, says that those just of the Old Law in Limbo were also Baptized before they went to heaven. I bolded the parts I thought were particularly interesting. Your thoughts?
    Very interesting.
    As a child in catechism in the catacombs lol, we were taught something very similar to this, that all the souls of the Just had to be baptized before they could enter heaven. If they had any purgatory time, it ended when Our Lord descended into hell to meet them. I remember because St. Joseph was first, then St. John the Baptist, then I think St. Adam then St. Eve, then the rest. I don't remember who did the baptizing and that's about the extent of what I remember about it, but we always knew that was not any official teaching or anything, only someone's idea and I remember that it was enjoyable for the kids and teacher to talk about. Brings back a fond memory - thanks AES.
    Do not be afraid to abandon yourself unreservedly to His loving Providence, for a child cannot perish in the arms of a Father Who is omnipotent.

    St. Margaret Mary Alacoque


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 02:26:00 PM »
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  • The Church teaches BOB/D.  This is accepted by all Catholics aware of this teaching.  Obviously, to the good willed, this is not the same as saying baptism is not necessary.  It is necessary with a necessity of precept and a relative necessity of means.  It is not intrinsically necessary.  So a person not aware of its necessity, through no fault of his own, who dies with perfect faith and supernatural charity will be saved without the actual sacrament.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 02:42:09 PM »
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  • The Church teaches BOB/D.  This is accepted by all Catholics aware of this teaching.  Obviously, to the good willed, this is not the same as saying baptism is not necessary.  It is necessary with a necessity of precept and a relative necessity of means.  It is not intrinsically necessary.  So a person not aware of its necessity, through no fault of his own, who dies with perfect faith and supernatural charity will be saved without the actual sacrament.  
    Here kids...this is an example of blatant heresy.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 02:43:35 PM »
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  • Here kids...this is an example of blatant heresy.
    According to heretics.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 02:44:42 PM »
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  • According to heretics.
    Hey kids...this is an example of Schism...calling Catholics heretics.
    John 12:[42] However, many of the chief men also believed in him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, that they might not be cast out of the synagogue. [43] For they loved the glory of men more than the glory of God.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 02:46:08 PM »
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  • Hey kids...this is an example of Schism...calling Catholics heretics.
    Feeneyite speak.  Yuck.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 09:09:55 AM »
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  •  in my opinion, says that those just of the Old Law in Limbo were also Baptized before they went to heaven

    Correct.  Serveral Church Fathers believed that the OT just were raised from the dead temporarily so they could be baptized.  Lover of Heresy used to mock me for alleging this.


    Online DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 09:14:09 AM »
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  • Correct.  Serveral Church Fathers believed that the OT just were raised from the dead temporarily so they could be baptized.  Lover of Heresy used to mock me for alleging this.
    I'd read this as well whilst researching / forming my own scriptural Rosary. Apparently it was a very common belief, in part connected to the dead coming forth after Christ died on the cross.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 09:21:39 AM »
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  • The Church teaches BOB/D.  This is accepted by all Catholics aware of this teaching.  Obviously, to the good willed, this is not the same as saying baptism is not necessary.  It is necessary with a necessity of precept and a relative necessity of means.  It is not intrinsically necessary.  So a person not aware of its necessity, through no fault of his own, who dies with perfect faith and supernatural charity will be saved without the actual sacrament.  

    LoT's idiotic necessity distinctions have been debunked a hundred times.  Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic is irrelevant.  It simply means that God COULD have conferred the grace of Baptism without water, not that He ever does so.  What's at issue is not what God CAN do, but, rather, what God DOES do.

    Notice how Lover of Heresy also lists necessity of precept FIRST to minimize "necessity of means" and then throws the qualifier "relative" in front of it.

    Anything to diminish the ACTUAL teaching of the Church and all theologians, that Baptism is absolutely necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  Catechism of St. Pius X, for instance, states that the Sacrament is "ABSOLUTELY" necessary for salvation (not relatively, LoL).

    That's why all the post Tridentine Fathers who believed in BoD taught that people would were saved via BoD did in fact receive the Sacrament, only in voto.

    But instead of reformulating his BoD proposition into a different mode of receiving the Sacrament, the pertinaciously heretical LoL persists in stating that people can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  That's clear-cut heresy, a denial of Trent.  And LoT remains pertinacious in it.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 09:22:22 AM »
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  • Feeneyites reject the Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Popes but turn to the Shepherd  of Hermes in theirs desparation.   :facepalm:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 09:22:44 AM »
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  • I'd read this as well whilst researching / forming my own scriptural Rosary. Apparently it was a very common belief, in part connected to the dead coming forth after Christ died on the cross.

    Exactly.  Why did these dead rise up after Our Lord died?  Just for show?  To create a spectacle?  No, a number of Church Fathers believed it was so they could be baptized.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 09:24:51 AM »
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  • Other teachings of the Suprema haec sacra, such as its insistence upon the fact that the doctrine of no salvation outside the true Church is a genuine dogma of the Catholic faith, had been stated explicitly many times in previous pronouncements of the ecclesiastical magisterium. Each one of the paragraphs cited above contains invaluable information about what the Church itself really understands and teaches about the dogma of its own necessity for the attainment of eternal salvation. It will be helpful to consider each one of them individually. 

    (1) The first paragraph we have cited tells of the authoritative character of the letter itself. The Cardinals of the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office decreed that these explanations be given, and the Holy Father approved their decision. We are dealing, then, with an authoritative document. It would be wrong for any teacher of Catholic doctrine to ignore or to contradict the teachings contained in this Holy Office letter. Fenton 
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 09:26:24 AM »
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  • Exactly.  Why did these dead rise up after Our Lord died?  Just for show?  To create a spectacle? 
    That must be it, a spectacle. Like St. John the Baptist - must have spent his life on earth baptizing as just a spectacle. Silly of him. Lover of Liberalism is such a willing dupe.
    Do not be afraid to abandon yourself unreservedly to His loving Providence, for a child cannot perish in the arms of a Father Who is omnipotent.

    St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Shepherd of Hermas
    « Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 09:31:19 AM »
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  • (2) The next paragraph repeats almost verbatim the statement of the Vatican Council in the third chapter of its dogmatic constitution Dei Filius, to the effect that "we are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office." It is interesting to see, however, that where the Dei Filius uses the expression "either by solemn judgment or by the ordinary and universal magisterium," the Suprema haec sacra says "not only by solemn judgment but also by the ordinary and universal magisterium." Its use of the "non tantum . . . sed etiam," instead of the "sive . . . sive," manifests its conviction that, in dealing with the explanation of the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, it is dealing with a matter which had hitherto been set forth mostly in the ordinary magisterium of the Church. Fenton
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

     

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