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Author Topic: Sedevacantist " Feeneyite " Bishops  (Read 11197 times)

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Offline Sunbeam

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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2012, 07:50:47 AM »
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  • Have I spotted a Dimond Doppelgänger?

    * * *

    To the point: We have receive the doctrine, referred to as “Baptism of Desire”, from the Ordinary Universal Magisterium of the Church. He who denies what comes from the Ordinary Universal Magisterium of the Church, is the one who espouses heresy.

    Offline Malleus 01

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    « Reply #31 on: May 23, 2012, 08:54:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Have I spotted a Dimond Doppelgänger?

    * * *

    To the point: We have receive the doctrine, referred to as “Baptism of Desire”, from the Ordinary Universal Magisterium of the Church. He who denies what comes from the Ordinary Universal Magisterium of the Church, is the one who espouses heresy.


    An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7

    Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood.
    We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
    Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality [“non ita stricte”] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from baptism of blood — translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.
    It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.


    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #32 on: May 23, 2012, 10:17:55 AM »
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  • It is Heresy to deny BOB and BOD they have always been believed.

    You feeneyites are not theologians and you do not understand the meaning of the sentences(which are more specific in Latin) that you quote, also everyone at Trent believed in BOD and BOB. Father Feeney was Excuмmunicated by Cadinal Ottiavani under Pope Pius XII because of his denial of BOD and BOB and only had the Excommunication lifted by Pope Paul VI(which Sede's wouldn't see as valid anyway) in an act of ecuмanism which in and of itself I believe would nullify the lifting of said excom since Excommunications are not vindicative penalties they are medicinal and the offender is supposed to repent before the penalty is lifted.

    Baptism of Desire is a Baptism, this is why we do not Baptise Catecuмens straight away but we do Baptise infants straight away. Baptism of Blood is also a valid Baptism the quotes from Trent that get quoted refering to water, were not stated against these Baptisms they were stated against some idiots who were teaching that you could baptise someone with wine or beer.

    Anyhow, here are the two passages from the Code of Canon Law with Commentary from 1918. This Code was begun by Pope St. Pius X and finished and promulgated by Pope Benedict XV.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #33 on: May 23, 2012, 10:46:31 AM »
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  • A few points, easy to miss:

    1) "Baptism" of desire is not a sacrament.

    2) "Baptism" of desire means different things to different people, and as such, eludes definition.

    3) The principle and necessary component for any "baptism" of desire to be effective is perfect contrition, for without perfect contrition, and in the absence of the Sacrament of Baptism, there can be no salvation.

    4) If it were to be defined (and authoritative definitions are extremely rare these days!) "baptism" of desire would be framed in the context of a special case of perfect contrition, and therefore would be something that the recipient could lose ~ that is, one could have it one moment, and lose it the next, which is problematic for definitive authority to clarify. One never loses the mark of Sacramental Baptism.

    5) The Sacrament of Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul that lasts for all eternity, but any "baptism of desire" would leave no such mark, and therefore calling it "baptism" of desire leads to misunderstanding, because it is not baptism, but merely a phrase popularly used to describe a desire FOR baptism.

    6) There is no argument against desire, per se, among those who question the popular claim of "baptism" of desire. The problem isn't the use of the word, "desire," but rather the use of the word "baptism," because it isn't Baptism, at all. It is perfect contrition, which is a wonderful thing, something we ought to all strive to achieve at all times, but it is not a sacrament.

    7) "Baptism" of desire is not dogma. It has never been defined, nor will it ever likely be defined, for the reasons above, and perhaps others. Therefore, questioning it cannot be a "heresy," and the subject is open to debate.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #34 on: May 23, 2012, 11:38:08 AM »
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  • Neil Obstat,

    I wouldn’t quarrel with the general drift of the seven points that you have just made.

    But there two of them that, I think, call for comment:  

    Quote
    "Baptism" of desire means different things to different people, and as such, eludes definition.


    That may be so in general, but what “Baptism of Desire” means to “different people” is irrelevant. What IS relevant is the concept underlying the words, as it is understood and taught by the Church.

    Quote
    Questioning [Baptism of Desire] cannot be a "heresy," and the subject is open to debate.


    If, as I understand to be the case, the doctrine of Baptism of Desire (baptismus flaminis) is from the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church then it must be accepted with Divine and Catholic Faith. (The foregoing scans, kindly provided by LordPhan, appear to support this understanding.)

    Hence, denial of the said doctrine of the Church would seem to constitute heresy.


    Offline Malleus 01

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    « Reply #35 on: May 23, 2012, 01:12:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Neil Obstat,

    I wouldn’t quarrel with the general drift of the seven points that you have just made.

    But there two of them that, I think, call for comment:  

    Quote
    "Baptism" of desire means different things to different people, and as such, eludes definition.


    That may be so in general, but what “Baptism of Desire” means to “different people” is irrelevant. What IS relevant is the concept underlying the words, as it is understood and taught by the Church.

    Quote
    Questioning [Baptism of Desire] cannot be a "heresy," and the subject is open to debate.


    If, as I understand to be the case, the doctrine of Baptism of Desire (baptismus flaminis) is from the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church then it must be accepted with Divine and Catholic Faith. (The foregoing scans, kindly provided by LordPhan, appear to support this understanding.)

    Hence, denial of the said doctrine of the Church would seem to constitute heresy.


    Agreed - Well stated

    Offline Prosologion

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    « Reply #36 on: May 23, 2012, 03:05:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Have I spotted a Dimond Doppelgänger?

    Hence, denial of the said doctrine of the Church would seem to constitute heresy.


    Oh so the Catechism of Trent is heretical then?


    Quote from: LordPhan
    It is Heresy to deny BOB and BOD they have always been believed.


    Haha. I ask the same to you. Is the Catechism heretical?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    You feeneyites are not theologians and you do not understand the meaning of the sentences(which are more specific in Latin) that you quote,


    Oh, and you are a theologian?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    also everyone at Trent believed in BOD and BOB.


    Oh really?

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”

    Quote from: LordPhan
    Father Feeney was Excuмmunicated by Cadinal Ottiavani under Pope Pius XII because of his denial of BOD and BOB and only had the Excommunication lifted by Pope Paul VI(which Sede's wouldn't see as valid anyway) in an act of ecuмanism which in and of itself I believe would nullify the lifting of said excom since Excommunications are not vindicative penalties they are medicinal and the offender is supposed to repent before the penalty is lifted.


    You're grasping at straws with this, and you reveal your ignorance on the matter.

    1- Feeney wasn't excommunicated by Ottaviani
    2- His "excommunication" had nothing to do with matters of doctrine, it was because he refused to go to Rome because they ignored the law and didn't present the reasons for his summons
    3- All the "clergymen" were hetretics anyways by the time of Feeney. He wrote a letter to all the bishops at the time asking about the salvation dogma and got only 3 positive responses.
    4- More importantly, the case of Father Feeney had nothing to do with the other two "baptisms", it was about the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla sallus. The "baptisms" were not the subject of debate, it was whether you could be saved only as a Catholic or not, which all the "clergymen" at the time didn't believe in anymore!


    So you (and anyone else) bringing up the Feeney case just shows how dishonest you are.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #37 on: May 23, 2012, 03:26:58 PM »
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  • Prosologion asks:

    Quote
    Is the Catechism heretical?


    Answer: Not at all, but Prosologion’s interpretation of the Catechism is.

    And before he comes back with a smart answer, might I suggest that he would do well to read and digest the whole of this thread, especially with reference to what the Roman Catechism actually teaches about the subject at hand.


    Offline Prosologion

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    « Reply #38 on: May 23, 2012, 03:50:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Prosologion asks:

    Quote
    Is the Catechism heretical?


    Answer: Not at all, but Prosologion’s interpretation of the Catechism is.

    And before he comes back with a smart answer, might I suggest that he would do well to read and digest the whole of this thread, especially with reference to what the Roman Catechism actually teaches about the subject at hand.


    I already read this whole thread.

    The statements i presented from the Catechism are clear for anyone with a semblance of honesty and good will.

    "My interpretation"? Yeah, the old "misinterpretation" nonsense. Dishonest people and liars love to cling to the "misinterpretation" stuff.

    Everything is ambiguous and no one can know what a Catechism intended for the masses says. In order to "understand" the Catechism, you need a theologian to hold your hand and give you the "correct" interpretation. You need "another interpretation" because what the catechism says, as it stands, doesn't fit with your heretical beliefs.

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #39 on: May 23, 2012, 04:20:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prosologion
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Have I spotted a Dimond Doppelgänger?

    Hence, denial of the said doctrine of the Church would seem to constitute heresy.


    Oh so the Catechism of Trent is heretical then?


    Quote from: LordPhan
    It is Heresy to deny BOB and BOD they have always been believed.


    Haha. I ask the same to you. Is the Catechism heretical?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    You feeneyites are not theologians and you do not understand the meaning of the sentences(which are more specific in Latin) that you quote,


    Oh, and you are a theologian?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    also everyone at Trent believed in BOD and BOB.


    Oh really?

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”

    Quote from: LordPhan
    Father Feeney was Excuмmunicated by Cadinal Ottiavani under Pope Pius XII because of his denial of BOD and BOB and only had the Excommunication lifted by Pope Paul VI(which Sede's wouldn't see as valid anyway) in an act of ecuмanism which in and of itself I believe would nullify the lifting of said excom since Excommunications are not vindicative penalties they are medicinal and the offender is supposed to repent before the penalty is lifted.


    You're grasping at straws with this, and you reveal your ignorance on the matter.

    1- Feeney wasn't excommunicated by Ottaviani
    2- His "excommunication" had nothing to do with matters of doctrine, it was because he refused to go to Rome because they ignored the law and didn't present the reasons for his summons
    3- All the "clergymen" were hetretics anyways by the time of Feeney. He wrote a letter to all the bishops at the time asking about the salvation dogma and got only 3 positive responses.
    4- More importantly, the case of Father Feeney had nothing to do with the other two "baptisms", it was about the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla sallus. The "baptisms" were not the subject of debate, it was whether you could be saved only as a Catholic or not, which all the "clergymen" at the time didn't believe in anymore!


    So you (and anyone else) bringing up the Feeney case just shows how dishonest you are.


    The Catechism of the Council of Trent teaches Baptism of Desire in regards to Catechumens in its explanation of why Catechumens do not have to immediately be baptised.

    I would like to point out to the Heretic Feeneyites that the first law of the Church is the salvation of souls. This is why infants are baptised immediately. Now if there were no baptism of desire(Which is taught by the Church as true throughout history the denial of which is heresy) then it would be a mortal sin for all the previous Popes and Clerics to delay baptism for all the Catechumens.

    So to be a Feeneyite is to accuse every cleric in the history of the Church of mortal sin that they have not repented of.

    If one of you attends an SSPX chapel and you promote this heretical belief in public you will be kicked out. The Fellayites may change this I neither know nor care, but those who follow Bishop Williamson will rebuke you a couple times and then remove you from the flock!

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #40 on: May 23, 2012, 04:23:12 PM »
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  • Catechism of the Council of Trent:

    Quote
    Infant Baptism: It's Necessity
    That this law extends not only to adults but also to infants and children, and that the Church has received this from Apostolic tradition, is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers.

    Besides, it is not to be supposed that Christ the Lord would have withheld the Sacrament and grace of Baptism from children, of whom He said: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me; for the kingdom of heaven is for such; ° whom also He embraced, upon whom He imposed hands, to whom He gave His blessing.

    Moreover, when we read that an entire family was baptised by Paul, it is sufficiently obvious that the children of the family must also have been cleansed in the saving font.

    Circuмcision, too, which was a figure of Baptism, affords strong argument in proof of this practice. That children were circuмcised on the eighth day is universally known. If then circuмcision, made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, was profitable to children, it is clear that Baptism, which is the circuмcision of Christ, not made by hand, is also profitable to them.

    Finally, as the Apostle teaches, if by one man's offence death reigned through one, much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. If, then, through the transgression of Adam, children inherit original sin, with still stronger reason can they attain through Christ our Lord grace and justice that they may reign in life. This, however, cannot be effected otherwise than by Baptism.

    Pastors, therefore, should inculcate the absolute necessity of administering Baptism to infants, and of gradually forming their tender minds to piety by education in the Christian religion. For according to these admirable words of the wise man: A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it.


    Infants Receive The Graces Of Baptism
    It may not be doubted that in Baptism infants receive the mysterious gifts of faith. Not that they believe with the assent of the mind, but they are established in the faith of their parents, if the parents profess the true faith; if not--to use the words of St. Augustine--then in that of the universal society of the saints; for they are rightly said to be presented for Baptism by all those to whom their initiation in that sacred rite is a source of joy, and by whose charity they are united to the communion of the Holy Ghost.


    Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed
    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

    Baptism Of Adults
    With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.


    They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly
    If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.

    They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.


    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once
    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.
    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.



    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #41 on: May 23, 2012, 04:28:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prosologion
    Quote from: Sunbeam
    Have I spotted a Dimond Doppelgänger?

    Hence, denial of the said doctrine of the Church would seem to constitute heresy.


    Oh so the Catechism of Trent is heretical then?


    Quote from: LordPhan
    It is Heresy to deny BOB and BOD they have always been believed.


    Haha. I ask the same to you. Is the Catechism heretical?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    You feeneyites are not theologians and you do not understand the meaning of the sentences(which are more specific in Latin) that you quote,


    Oh, and you are a theologian?

    Quote from: LordPhan
    also everyone at Trent believed in BOD and BOB.


    Oh really?

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”

    Quote from: LordPhan
    Father Feeney was Excuмmunicated by Cadinal Ottiavani under Pope Pius XII because of his denial of BOD and BOB and only had the Excommunication lifted by Pope Paul VI(which Sede's wouldn't see as valid anyway) in an act of ecuмanism which in and of itself I believe would nullify the lifting of said excom since Excommunications are not vindicative penalties they are medicinal and the offender is supposed to repent before the penalty is lifted.


    You're grasping at straws with this, and you reveal your ignorance on the matter.

    1- Feeney wasn't excommunicated by Ottaviani
    2- His "excommunication" had nothing to do with matters of doctrine, it was because he refused to go to Rome because they ignored the law and didn't present the reasons for his summons
    3- All the "clergymen" were hetretics anyways by the time of Feeney. He wrote a letter to all the bishops at the time asking about the salvation dogma and got only 3 positive responses.
    4- More importantly, the case of Father Feeney had nothing to do with the other two "baptisms", it was about the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla sallus. The "baptisms" were not the subject of debate, it was whether you could be saved only as a Catholic or not, which all the "clergymen" at the time didn't believe in anymore!


    So you (and anyone else) bringing up the Feeney case just shows how dishonest you are.


    I would ask that this person be banned, he has just accused Pope Pius XII of heresy, aswell as the good Cardinals and Priests prior to Vatican II.

    By the way, Father Feeney's condemnation contrary to what you say had nothing to do with "Outside the Church there is no salvation" that is a lie, it was because he denied that the Catechumens were members of the Church through Baptism of Desire. You have been lied to and are then spreading the lie hopefully for your sake unknowingly.

    Offline Sunbeam

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    « Reply #42 on: May 23, 2012, 05:52:43 PM »
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  • Prosologion joined today saying:
    Quote
    I find it funny when someone quotes the Catechism of the Council of Trent in an attempt to defend "baptism of desire" and deny the absolute necessity of water Baptism. They are absolute liars and highly dishonest individuals indeed.


    Prosologion later said:
    Quote
    The statements i presented from the Catechism are clear for anyone with a semblance of honesty and good will.


    Prosologion then said:
    Quote
    Everything is ambiguous and no one can know what a Catechism intended for the masses says.


    Prosologion left today saying:
    Quote
    This is nothing but a waste of time.


    Indeed!