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Author Topic: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written  (Read 3543 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2020, 12:24:47 PM »
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  • The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”



    Quote from: PAPA GREGORIO XVI
    EPISTOLA
     DEL SOMMO PONTEFICE
     GREGORIO XVI
    DOLOREM QUO

    [...]
    Certo non altro vogliono i ministri protestanti se non che il clero cattolico, indotto a un tal modo di agire, attenui poi nel popolo fedele la memoria di quel dogma che riguarda la necessità della fede e dell’unità cattolica, al fine di raggiungere la salvezza; così essi potranno più facilmente adescare molti altri, in modo che si allontanino dallo stretto sentiero della verità cattolica e imbocchino sciaguratamente l’ampia via dell’errore e della perdizione.
    [...]
    Quote from: deepL translation
    Of course, Protestant ministers want nothing more than for the Catholic clergy, induced to act in such a way, to soften in the faithful people the memory of that dogma that concerns the necessity of faith and Catholic unity, in order to reach salvation; in this way they can more easily lure many others away from the narrow path of Catholic truth and take the wide path of error and perdition.


    vatican.va
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #46 on: September 12, 2020, 01:45:45 PM »
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  • There's no more doubts or unanswered questions where Fr. Cekada is now. May he rest in peace.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #47 on: September 12, 2020, 02:36:16 PM »
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  • [font=&quot,serif]#1 they think that Hell is an amorphous solid mass of horrific punishments
    [/font]
    [/size]
    Scripture describes Hell as a place of fire and torment. I challenge you to find any passage either in Scripture or a theologian that supports your idea of the uncomfortable-but-not-horrible places in Hell. I have never come across anything resembling that in anything I have read on the Faith. Every saint I have ever read also describes Hell as a place of, in your words, "horrific punishments".

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #48 on: September 12, 2020, 02:44:27 PM »
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  • Scripture describes Hell as a place of fire and torment. I challenge you to find any passage either in Scripture or a theologian that supports your idea of the uncomfortable-but-not-horrible places in Hell. I have never come across anything resembling that in anything I have read on the Faith. Every saint I have ever read also describes Hell as a place of, in your words, "horrific punishments".
    Why would I defend something I didn't say?
    By the way, Limbo of the infants (a natural paradise) is in Hell.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #49 on: September 16, 2020, 05:17:31 AM »
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  • Scripture describes Hell as a place of fire and torment. I challenge you to find any passage either in Scripture or a theologian that supports your idea of the uncomfortable-but-not-horrible places in Hell. I have never come across anything resembling that in anything I have read on the Faith. Every saint I have ever read also describes Hell as a place of, in your words, "horrific punishments".
    I'm curious about this.  Last Tradhican rightly replied that Limbo is a paradise in Hell.  So one does wonder if a naturally virtuous pagan who didn't have supernatural faith but had few mortal sins could perhaps get something that is not quite that but maybe somewhat close to it, perhaps suffering the pain of loss alone, as is shown by Dante's 1st circle, or perhaps some mild torment.

    From what I'm aware, the *images* of Hell in Scripture and Tradition are primarily intended to make people fearful to end up there (though that's not to say they aren't accurate, understand.)  And since Scripture is written to Catholics, could we *speculate* that what's being described there is the kind of torment that Catholics who don't cooperate with the many graces they are given are going to end up with?  And that perhaps, say, some Muslim in the sand dunes of Saudi Arabia who lives a naturally good life might end up with an eternity that's.... something closer to just living in Saudi Arabia? ;) 

    I find the speculation interesting at any rate and I'm curious if anything would rule it out.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #50 on: February 05, 2021, 02:01:44 PM »
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  • Scripture describes Hell as a place of fire and torment. I challenge you to find any passage either in Scripture or a theologian that supports your idea of the uncomfortable-but-not-horrible places in Hell. I have never come across anything resembling that in anything I have read on the Faith. Every saint I have ever read also describes Hell as a place of, in your words, "horrific punishments".
    That's true, but the Church has also always taught that the punishments in Hell are proportional to the offences that got you there. If the minimum in Hell for committing one unconfessed mortal sin is unimaginable, incomprehensible tortures, does proportional punishment even matter at that point? I suppose it's impossible to understand what Hell is like, but it's hard to grasp how the minimum could be, well, hellish torment while still allowing for degrees of punishment a thousand times worse than that again. I wonder if any theologian has ever elaborated on how the torments would differ depending on the sin's, a version of Dante's Inferno but based on actual Church teaching.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #51 on: February 05, 2021, 03:16:18 PM »
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  • That's true, but the Church has also always taught that the punishments in Hell are proportional to the offences that got you there.
    .
    Yes, but Scripture says that Hell is a place of fire. Even on earth, fire causes incredible pain. And the saints teach that the fire in Hell is vastly worse than fire here.
    .

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    If the minimum in Hell for committing one unconfessed mortal sin is unimaginable, incomprehensible tortures, does proportional punishment even matter at that point?

    .
    Everyone's punishment in Hell is proportionate to the amount of their guilt, that is true. But the guilt of one mortal sin is infinite. It certainly merits an eternity of torment, as our Faith teaches.
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    I suppose it's impossible to understand what Hell is like, but it's hard to grasp how the minimum could be, well, hellish torment while still allowing for degrees of punishment a thousand times worse than that again.

    .
    These are supernatural mysteries. But again, theologians teach that Hell is a place of unimaginable torment. Don't blame me. That is what they teach. If you find some theologian who is not a heretic who says the opposite, please tell us.
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    I wonder if any theologian has ever elaborated on how the torments would differ depending on the sin's, a version of Dante's Inferno but based on actual Church teaching.

    .
    Dante's Inferno is a work of fiction. To answer your question, the level of punishment or torment varies depending on a person's guilt. That is what the Church teaches.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #52 on: February 05, 2021, 03:20:27 PM »
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  • Well, to argue against you, Yeti, if there can be a Limbo of the Infants which is a part of hell and has no fire and the children there are even somewhat happy, then why can there not be other parts of hell with no or slight punishment? Like the place for an unbeliever who never had the faith but was a good man and never committed a mortal sin other than unbelief, or for a Catholic whose only sin was eating a hot dog one Friday?
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #53 on: February 05, 2021, 03:28:44 PM »
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  • I'm curious about this.  Last Tradhican rightly replied that Limbo is a paradise in Hell.
    .
    This is not a discussion about the limbo of the infants, so Last's mention of it is not relevant to this discussion.
    .

    Quote
    So one does wonder if a naturally virtuous pagan who didn't have supernatural faith but had few mortal sins could perhaps get something that is not quite that but maybe somewhat close to it, perhaps suffering the pain of loss alone, as is shown by Dante's 1st circle, or perhaps some mild torment.
    .
    Our Lord said the wicked would be condemned to eternal fire, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Do you have any source that supports your view? It's not just Our Lord, but every saint I've ever read who spoke about Hell, that said it was a place of terrible suffering. I really don't understand what you gentlemens' basis is for saying there are people in Hell who don't suffer all that much.
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    as is shown by Dante's

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    Nothing is shown by Dante's Infero, as it is a work of fiction that is not intended to be a work of theology. I believe he even put canonized saints in Hell. It is not intended to be taken literally.
    .


    Quote
    From what I'm aware, the *images* of Hell in Scripture and Tradition are primarily intended to make people fearful to end up there (though that's not to say they aren't accurate, understand.)  And since Scripture is written to Catholics, could we *speculate* that what's being described there is the kind of torment that Catholics who don't cooperate with the many graces they are given are going to end up with?  And that perhaps, say, some Muslim in the sand dunes of Saudi Arabia who lives a naturally good life might end up with an eternity that's.... something closer to just living in Saudi Arabia? ;)
    .
    So you are going against what Scripture, theologians and the saints teach about Hell, about how it is a place of unimaginable torment. To answer your question, no, Catholics cannot speculate in that manner.
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    I find the speculation interesting at any rate and I'm curious if anything would rule it out.

    .
    Yes, as far as I know, every word I have ever read about Hell in Scripture, theology and the writings of the saints rules it out.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
    « Reply #54 on: February 05, 2021, 03:33:44 PM »
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  • Well, to argue against you, Yeti, if there can be a Limbo of the Infants which is a part of hell and has no fire and the children there are even somewhat happy, then why can there not be other parts of hell with no or slight punishment?
    .
    This is a discussion about the Hell of the damned. An argument based on a different part of Hell does not shed any light on the Hell of the damned. You might as well say maybe Hell isn't bad at all, since the Limbo of the Patriarchs was also in Hell, and that was just fine.
    .
    This is a discussion about the Hell of the Damned, not any other part of Hell. This is the part that Our Lord spoke about so frequently and that theology and the saints discuss at such great length. Can't we just learn from what they teach us?
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    Like the place for an unbeliever who never had the faith but was a good man and never committed a mortal sin other than unbelief, or for a Catholic whose only sin was eating a hot dog one Friday?

    .
    People only end up in Hell (of the damned) for committing mortal sin. Every mortal sin is of infinite malice against God. Eating a hot dog on Friday has infinite malice and, as our Faith teaches, makes a person deserving to be condemned to Hell. Our Faith teaches that yes, a person deserves eternal torment for even one mortal sin. I don't understand why people in this thread have such a hard time with this idea.