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Author Topic: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written  (Read 9891 times)

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Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 11:35:14 AM »
Ok, but I thought we were talking about +ABL and hindus?  There are 3 different salvation questions and if they are mixed together, confusion reigns.
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1.  Non-catholics / BOD-BOB
2.  Baptized heretics / rejection of error
3.  Catholics in material heresy
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Just like not every catholic who was infected with the Arian heresy was damned, so not every Donatist was.  Only God knows the extent to which they accepted error.  In the beginning years, Anglicans in England were basically 99% catholic except they rejected the pope (not that this rejection is a small matter, but it's an example to show that heresy can often be only 1 error, while all the other beliefs are true.)  Did every Englishman who went along with Henry VIII fully understand the error?  Maybe not.  Only God knows.
OK yes, you're right.  That's confusing.

I'm honestly skeptical that the invincible ignorance principle, even if its true, can be extended all the way out to Hindus and other polytheists.  The best argument I could think of for it is an explicitly scriptural one, Acts 17:30, but even then there are a couple problems with that.  One of them being, I'd be arguing for my own interpretation, which is questionable, and would need to be confirmed in some way.  Second: the Greeks still acknowledged "the Unknown God" ie. they acknowledged that they did not fully understand, that they were still missing something.  Third: God could overlook their ignorance, but  that still might mean they end up in Limbo (barring other mortal sins that they're damned for.)  

Even St Justin's argument, the way I'm understanding it and arguing for it, could plausibly exclude all polytheists whatsoever on principle, and frankly, I think that's probable, even if he's right (which is uncertain.)

So I guess in different places I've been arguing for #1 and for #2.  I've been arguing for the possibility of #1 based on St Justin, and for the possibility of #2 based on St Augustine.  I believe Feeneyites would reject both.

#3 wasn't what I had in mind or what I was discussing, everywhere, since I think everyone (at least here... the Dimonds do push this one sometimes) think that someone in category #3 can be saved.

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Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 03:04:23 PM »
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So I guess in different places I've been arguing for #1 and for #2.  I've been arguing for the possibility of #1 based on St Justin, and for the possibility of #2 based on St Augustine.  I believe Feeneyites would reject both.
Here's how we have to understand this doctrine.  The Church infallibly teaches, which is what God wants us to believe, that there is no salvation outside the Church for both 1) non-Catholics and 2) heretics.  We must believe this in a general sense.
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Has the Church ever said, specifically, that 1) Joe Blow pagan is in hell?  No.  2) Or that Sally heretic is in hell?  No.  It's not our job, nor the Church's to specifically damn anyone to hell.  This is God's own doing.  However, we must teach/believe the general doctrine and leave the rest to God.


Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2019, 03:54:35 PM »
Ladislas I stand corrected, from my experience in the northeast Iwas iead to believe that not only the Diamonds but Feenyites denied BOB

Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2019, 04:38:47 PM »
Here's how we have to understand this doctrine.  The Church infallibly teaches, which is what God wants us to believe, that there is no salvation outside the Church for both 1) non-Catholics and 2) heretics.  We must believe this in a general sense.
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Has the Church ever said, specifically, that 1) Joe Blow pagan is in hell?  No.  2) Or that Sally heretic is in hell?  No.  It's not our job, nor the Church's to specifically damn anyone to hell.  This is God's own doing.  However, we must teach/believe the general doctrine and leave the rest to God.
I feel like the second part of this is a concession to the point I've been making the whole time, and furthermore, that I haven't denied the first part, unless I'm missing something.  

I've conceeded the whole time that unless someone is inside the Church they can't be saved.  The debate has been over whether that always necessarily entails visible membership or not.

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Re: Sede Fr. Cekada Refuses to believe EENS Dogmas as they are Written
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2019, 04:47:05 PM »

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Has the Church ever said, specifically, that 1) Joe Blow pagan is in hell?  No.  2) Or that Sally heretic is in hell?  No.  It's not our job, nor the Church's to specifically damn anyone to hell. 
But the Church does teach that if Joe Pagan and Sally heretic didn't join the Church before they died, they were not saved.  What does "joining the Church" mean?  It can only mean Baptism or (in the case of Sally, who's baptized and already a member, an abjuration of heresies).  
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BOD is not visible membership.