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Author Topic: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake  (Read 850 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
« on: August 23, 2018, 11:31:55 AM »
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    • I was re-reading the quote that Sean posted a few days ago on the +W thread  (page 6):
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/eleison-comments-by-mgr-williamson-issue-dlxxvii-(577)/75/

    "Thus, there is need of explicit faith in some article of faith. In the implicit desire of baptism, the act of Faith and hope must be explicit, while it suffices for the desire of baptism itself to be implicit, since he who desires the whole desires necessarily every part of that whole...In any case, there is no Baptism of desire without the supernatural virtue of faith and a certain explicit knowledge of the essential points of faith. Since the nature of faith means that is impossible, that it be completely implicit, since faith is a supernatural light to the intelligence."
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm


    The entire thread, up to the point was a discussion of +ABL and his erroneous "implicit faith" BOD.  But the last sentence never made sense to me because it's not a complete thought, so I went to research the original quote and here's what I found.

    1.  This quote is NOT from +ABL.  It is FROM 2 DIFFERENT SOURCES, and pieced together to sound like one person.  So in actuality, the quote is irrelevant because person A's description of "implicit BOD" is not necessarily the same as +ABL's.  A dumb post by Sean, a potentially fraudulent attempt, and a waste of everyone's time.


    2.  Following the above link, you'll see that this quote is from 2 different sources.

    A.  "Thus, there is need of explicit faith in some article of faith. In the implicit desire of baptism, the act of Faith and hope must be explicit, while it suffices for the desire of baptism itself to be implicit, since he who desires the whole desires necessarily every part of that whole.
    -- This is from St Augustine, who we know flip-flopped on BOD so this quote is meaningless and it's heretical.

    B.  In any case, there is no Baptism of desire without the supernatural virtue of faith and a certain explicit knowledge of the essential points of faith. Since the nature of faith means that is impossible, that it be completely implicit, since faith is a supernatural light to the intelligence."
    -- This quote isn't from St Augustine, nor is it from +ABL, but from the author of the article, Raymond Taouk (whoever he is).  So this quote is complete garbage.  The last sentence doesn't even make sense and isn't a complete thought...which is why I went researching the "quote" above in the first place. 


    ---

    On a side note, in searching for the above quote, I found the quote posted on "The Trad Forum" by a member named "Anonimous" who not only used the exact same quote as above, but the ENTIRE POST WAS EXACTLY THE SAME.  Word for word. 

    There's nothing wrong with that, but it's funny that Sean recycles his garbage from other sites.  Or...Sean is not "Anonimous" and he stole the quote AND THE ENTIRE POST verbatim.  Either way, it's funny.

    http://thetradforum.com/index.php?topic=406.0
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #1 on: August 23, 2018, 11:56:47 AM »
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    • Great work, Sherlock:

    You clicked on the link I provided, and it brought you quote I cited!

    Well done!

    Welcome to the internet; there are so many wonderful discoveries ahead of you!

    Meanwhile, other that calling St Augustine a heretic, I notice there is absolutely no doctrinal content in your post.

    Instead, you have shown the world only that my arguments are tearing you apart inside, and they are haunting you, so you desire to reengage, to end on a stronger note.  But I promise you, it is charity to you that I desist, as I would only plunge you into a deeper and deeper crisis of faith, had I continued.

    Meanwhile, you pretend I attributed the quote I linked to to ABL, even though the link (which you only decided to visit a week later, meaning you never bothered to consider the argument all this time) clearly identifies Fr Taouk as the author?

    You are either an idiot or a liar (or both).

    But wait, there’s more:

    You go further still, and suggest I have pieced two different quotes from two different authors, and tried to pass them off as ABLs when, if you would pull your head out of your ass, you would see it is Fr Taouk’s comment, and his quotation of St Augustine from within the same article!

    Dummy: Why would I pretend to be quoting ABL while linking to Fr Taouk??

    You are pathetic.

    Have fun trying to shake the truths I have taught you as though they were impure thoughts.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #2 on: August 23, 2018, 12:23:37 PM »
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    • Quote
    You go further still, and suggest I have pieced two different quotes from two different authors, and tried to pass them off as ABLs when, if you would pull your head out of your ass, you would see it is Fr Taouk’s comment, and his quotation of St Augustine from within the same article!
    You are correct, I assumed that the quote was from +ABL.  I already admitted this mistake.
    But you passed off this quote as coming from one individual.  Mixing a quote from St Augustine with a quote from a non-saint, and one that is 1/2 a page apart is not honest.  They were NOT one complete thought, but 2 separate thoughts.  This is why I researched it, because the 2 quotes never meshed well together.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 12:33:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 23, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
    You are correct, I assumed that the quote was from +ABL.  I already admitted this mistake.
    But you passed off this quote as coming from one individual.  Mixing a quote from St Augustine with a quote from a non-saint, and one that is 1/2 a page apart is not honest.  They were NOT one complete thought, but 2 separate thoughts.  This is why I researched it, because the 2 quotes never meshed well together.

    Total nonsense:

    Not only would you have known from the outset that the quote I cited was from one writer (Fr Taouk), had you ever bothered to click on the link, but the passages from his article which I cited were connected by ellipses (...), indicating there was a gap between the two quotes taken from that article.

    I did my part in properly citing.

    If you did not read closely enough to notice, that’s on you, not me.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 12:37:01 PM »
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    • Ps:

    You are now obliged in justice to retract your post for the accusations of dishonesty you have made, but for which you now realize you were mistaken.

    If you do, my esteem for you will be repaired (I have to do it frequently myself).

    If you do not, you will have a moral issue on your conscience.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 12:45:04 PM »
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    but the passages from his article which I cited were connected by ellipses (...), indicating there was a gap between the two quotes taken from that article.
    Ellipses are used to denote a gap between sentences that typically come from the SAME PERSON, or the SAME paragraph.
    In your case, the two quotes were separated by 7 different paragraphs, and 5 different quotes from 5 separate sources.  That's like using an ellipse to string together a quote from chaper 1 of a book and chapter 8 of a DIFFERENT book by a DIFFERENT author. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 12:56:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 23, 2018, 12:45:04 PM
    Ellipses are used to denote a gap between sentences that typically come from the SAME PERSON, or the SAME paragraph.
    In your case, the two quotes were separated by 7 different paragraphs, and 5 different quotes from 5 separate sources.  That's like using an ellipse to string together a quote from chaper 1 of a book and chapter 8 of a DIFFERENT book by a DIFFERENT author.

    Nonsense:

    1) Had you ever bothered to click on the link in the first place, you would not have made your accusations;

    2) Regarding the distance bridged by the ellipses, you yourself noted there is only half a page between them.

    Please keep in mind:

    The retraction I seek of you is for your own good, not mine (though I am losing hope, as already having acknowledged one mistake, you followed it with no apology, despite the moderately serious ad hominem of dishonesty).

    I can assure you of this:

    Had I in my zeal (like you) made a mistaken accusation of deliberate dishonesty, in a hasty desire to trip up an opponent, suddenly discovered my accusations to be false, I would retract and immediately apologize (as in fact all know me to have done on occasion, though I have never had to do so for wrongly alleging deliberate dishonesty).

    Not to do so implies a deliberate disregard for truth and justice.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 01:07:09 PM »
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    • The quote is a fake, not because I thought it was +ABL's (which is my mistake and which I didn't accuse you of anything in this regard).  I accuse you of posting a fake quote because you improperly used an ellipses to connect 2 different thoughts, from 2 different authors.  I will not retract this accusation.

    The fact that both quotes came from the same website is meaningless.  I can't post a quote from St Thomas' Summa and then post my interpretation of the Summa and pass it off as one complete thought.  That's wrong.  I said that your connection of these quotes was "potentially fraudulent".  Based on your explanation, no fraud was involved and I apologize.  I will reduce my charge from potentially fraudulent to "false citation due to laziness".

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #8 on: August 23, 2018, 01:14:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 23, 2018, 01:07:09 PM
    The quote is a fake, not because I thought it was +ABL's (which is my mistake and which I didn't accuse you of anything in this regard).  I accuse you of posting a fake quote because you improperly used an ellipses to connect 2 different thoughts, from 2 different authors.  I will not retract this accusation.

    The fact that both quotes came from the same website is meaningless.  I can't post a quote from St Thomas' Summa and then post my interpretation of the Summa and pass it off as one complete thought.  That's wrong.  I said that your connection of these quotes was "potentially fraudulent".  Based on your explanation, no fraud was involved and I apologize.  I will reduce my charge from potentially fraudulent to "false citation due to laziness".

    Once again, you diverge from reality:

    The entire quote is from ONE AUTHOR: FR TAOUK (who, in the selection I cited, supplies his own thoughts, then cites St Augustine, as everyone who bothered to click on the link is fully aware).

    Well, I tried in vain yet again to help you, and probably should have realized it would only build your obstinacy.

    But since I do not want to do that, yet again I am shaking off the dust.

    You just go right ahead and consider me a liar.

    Pax vobis,

    Sean Johnson
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sean Johnson's "implicit desire" quote is a fake
    « Reply #9 on: August 23, 2018, 01:35:18 PM »
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    The entire quote is from ONE AUTHOR: FR TAOUK (who, in the selection I cited, supplies his own thoughts, then cites St Augustine, as everyone who bothered to click on the link is fully aware).
    Fr Taouk cited St Augustine for the WHOLE paragraph (citation #13), (except for the quote from Scripture).  It's not clear which sentences are Fr Taouk's thoughts and which are St Augustine's, since he does not quote St Augustine directly, but paraphrases him.

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I apologize for calling you a lazy citation-er.  Fr Taouk is the lazy one.
    Also, if the quote in question is not from St Augustine, then he's not the heretic but Fr Taouk.  We'll never know until we ask Fr Taouk.
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