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Author Topic: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics  (Read 986 times)

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Offline trad123

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Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
« on: April 18, 2021, 06:18:49 PM »
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  • Saying RIP in regards to the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Prince Charles, or any non-Catholic for that matter is an implicit admission of a belief in salvation of those who die outside the Church.

    As if it doesn't matter whether one professes the Catholic faith.

    At the very least, express a desire that such souls converted before they died.



    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
    Summo Iugiter Studio
    On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm


    Quote
    2.

    (. . .)

    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.


    I didn't thumb down cassini in his thread, but the following doesn't sit right:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/list-of-funny-remarks-by-prince-philip-(rip)/msg742534/#msg742534


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    That said, how many of you saw his funeral yesterday? The prayers reflecting the belief in God and the afterlife said out loud and the singing in praise of God was beautiful, a belief shared by any traditional Catholic, the likes of which I have not heard at a Catholic funeral for a long time. Now go and find fault in that as happened in their now Protestant St George's chapel.


    Perhaps Calvinists or Lutherans also have nice sounding hymns, besides the Anglicans, but it won't matter one iota in regards to their eternal salvation. How many in hell would exchange the time spent in idle words that we call funny, for another chance for conversion to the true faith and time for penance?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: April 18, 2021, 06:36:10 PM »
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  • Saying RIP in regards to the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Prince Charles, or any non-Catholic for that matter is an implicit admission of a belief in salvation of those who die outside the Church.

    As if it doesn't matter whether one professes the Catholic faith.

    At the very least, express a desire that such souls converted before they died.



    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
    Summo Iugiter Studio
    On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm



    I didn't thumb down cassini in his thread, but the following doesn't sit right:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/list-of-funny-remarks-by-prince-philip-(rip)/msg742534/#msg742534



    Perhaps Calvinists or Lutherans also have nice sounding hymns, besides the Anglicans, but it won't matter one iota in regards to their eternal salvation. How many in hell would exchange the time spent in idle words that we call funny, for another chance for conversion to the true faith and time for penance?
    All true. But not surprising, considering that Catholics have been taught for decades now that everyone goes to Heaven, even Judas. Vatican II, assisting souls to Hell since 1962.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: April 18, 2021, 06:54:30 PM »
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  • Yes, this demonstrates how far the poison of religious indifferentism has spread even among Traditional Catholics.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: April 18, 2021, 06:57:20 PM »
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  • Prince Charles

    Correction: Prince Philip
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: April 18, 2021, 07:00:18 PM »
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  • All true. But not surprising, considering that Catholics have been taught for decades now that everyone goes to Heaven, even Judas. Vatican II, assisting souls to Hell since 1962.

    Indeed, everyone needs to be acquainted with what was going on in the 1940s and 1950s (and of course well before that).  Whether or not one agrees with Father Feeney, this is a fascinating account of all that transpired there.

    https://tinyurl.com/ndh3rydf


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #5 on: April 18, 2021, 07:09:00 PM »
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  • Here's just some of it:

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    Father Feeney became famous for his public stand for the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation in the 1940’s and 1950’s.  Most people fail to realize that, at that time, the world’s bishops were by no means staunch traditionalists.  Most of the world’s bishops had already embraced the heresy of indifferentism, which explains why almost all of them signed the heretical Vatican II docuмents just a short time later.  They had embraced the heretical idea that “invincible ignorance” saves those who die as non-Catholics, as I’ve discussed in certain previous sections.  This is why one can easily detect heresy against the dogma in most theology manuals and texts beginning as early as the late 19th century.  In fact, during his time, Father Feeney wrote to all of the bishops of the world about the dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation and received only three positive responses.  In other words, only three of the world’s bishops at that time manifested a positive belief in the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No salvation as it had been defined.  It is no wonder that Vatican II went through with virtually no resistance from the Episcopate.

    Father Feeney believed and preached the dogma – as it had been defined – publicly in Boston.  He believed and preached that unless a man embraces the Catholic Faith – whether he be a Jєω, Muslim, Protestant or agnostic – he will perish forever in Hell.  Many converted, and many were angry.  He had not a few enemies, especially among the increasingly modernist, politically correct and compromised clergy.

    One of his main enemies was the Archbishop of Boston, Richard Cushing, a B’nai Brith (Jєωιѕн Freemasons) man of the year, and someone who called the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation “nonsense.”  In April of 1949, Cushing silenced Fr. Feeney and interdicted St. Benedict Center (the apostolate affiliated with Fr. Feeney).  The reason given by Cushing was “disobedience,” but the real reason was Father Feeney’s public stand for the dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation.  It was not due to Father Feeney’s stand against the theory of baptism of desire either, since this wasn’t first published until 1952.  Cushing’s dissatisfaction with Fr. Feeney was strictly based on Father Feeney’s stand for the defined dogma that only Catholics – and those who become Catholics – can be saved.

    Cushing had allies with other heretical clergymen in Boston, the area where the controversy erupted.  Father John Ryan, S.J., head of the Adult Education Institute of Boston College, stated in the fall of 1947: “I do not agree with Father Feeney’s doctrine on salvation outside the Church.”[dxliv]  Father Stephen A. Mulcahy, S.J., Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences of Boston College, termed it: “Father Feeney’s doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church.”[dxlv]  And Father J.J. McEleney, S.J., Provincial of the New England Province of the Society of Jesus, told Father Feeney in a personal meeting, that he was being ordered to transfer to Holy Cross College because of “Your doctrine.”[dxlvi]  Father Feeney quickly responded, “My doctrine on what?”  To which Fr. McEleney replied, “I’m sorry, we can’t go into that.”

    Right from the start, these fallen clergymen fused the issue with Father Feeney rather than the real source from which it came.  This enabled them to focus on Father Feeney, and ignore Jesus Christ, whose doctrine this was.

    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics).”[dxlvii]

    These heretics failed to realize that to belittle a defined dogma to something of Father Feeney’s invention is blasphemous and severely dishonest.  But God is not mocked.  We see the same thing today, especially rampant among so-called traditionalists.  But I will return to this point.

    On December 2, 1948, the President of Boston College, Father William L. Keleher, S.J., held an interview with Dr. Maluf, who was an ally of Father Feeney in the stand for the dogma.  Fr. Keleher stated:  “Father Feeney came to me at the beginning of this situation and I would have liked to do something except that I could not agree with his doctrine on salvation… He (Fr. Feeney) kept repeating such phrases as ‘There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.’”[dxlviii] 


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 07:11:08 PM »
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  • When I say requiescat in pace, it is implicit that I am praying they somehow came into the One True Catholic Church before their soul left their body.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 07:20:24 PM »
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  • When I say requiescat in pace, it is implicit that I am praying they somehow came into the One True Catholic Church before their soul left their body.

    Even if that is someone's intention, I believe it a mistake to say that phrase publicly.  So, for instance, if when Rush Limbaugh died, we would post RIP, the impression is one believes that there's a real possibility (even likelihood) that the person is saved ... which would be scandalous.  Nobody reads into the phrase the intent that you describe above, so it could be an occasion for scandal to say it without explicitly adding the qualification you stipulate.  And, if you're unwilling to explicitly state your mind as above, then it's likely that you're intentionally leaving the meaning ambiguous, so it could be taken in an orthodox sense by Catholics and interpreted by others in their religious indifferentist sense by non-Catholics.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 08:28:02 PM »
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  • Even if that is someone's intention, I believe it a mistake to say that phrase publicly.  So, for instance, if when Rush Limbaugh died, we would post RIP, the impression is one believes that there's a real possibility (even likelihood) that the person is saved ... which would be scandalous.  Nobody reads into the phrase the intent that you describe above, so it could be an occasion for scandal to say it without explicitly adding the qualification you stipulate.  And, if you're unwilling to explicitly state your mind as above, then it's likely that you're intentionally leaving the meaning ambiguous, so it could be taken in an orthodox sense by Catholics and interpreted by others in their religious indifferentist sense by non-Catholics.
    I don't think it's ever a bad thing to say these words.  When one says "may he rest in peace", the very construction of that phrase indicates that our prayer is needed --- and it is indeed a prayer, I'm saying it to Almighty God, not to my neighbor --- and that there is the possibility that they are not "resting in peace".  If they're in heaven, they don't need that prayer.  If their salvation was in jeopardy, or if they are serving a long sojourn in purgatory, then that prayer most certainly is needed.  (It's just a coincidence that the abbreviation RIP stands for the same thing in Latin and English, though nobody outside of Catholic and Latinist circles comprehends this.  And, granted, "rest in peace" is not the same thing as "may he rest in peace".)

    The phrase that I really dislike is "they're in a better place now".  I just keep silence when someone says that --- I never, ever say it myself, in that I am not a Pope and I cannot canonize anyone.  I want to say "let's hope so", but then that would introduce an element of doubt, and in that moderns are all basically Unitarian Universalists when it comes to questions of salvation and immediate entry into heaven, it could provoke verbally violent reactions.  I normally just tell people, usually non-Catholics (I actually do not talk to that many Catholics, I live in an overwhelming Protestant part of the country, and to tell you the truth, I really don't want to talk to post-Vatican II "Newchurch" Catholics in the first place!), that I'm an "old-fashioned", "old-school", "traditional" Catholic, then I give some kind of litany about "you know, rosary, scapular, Latin Mass, fish on Friday, and so on".  If they want to know further what I believe, they can look it up.  I do comment, as appropriate, that "we're quite a bit more conservative than the parish church (or school) down the road".  If there is a way to get and keep their attention and interest beyond that, I'd like to know about it.  At some point I just have to let go and let the Holy Ghost take over.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 08:36:26 PM »
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  • I don't think it's ever a bad thing to say these words.  When one says "may he rest in peace", the very construction of that phrase indicates that our prayer is needed --- and it is indeed a prayer, I'm saying it to Almighty God, not to my neighbor --- and that there is the possibility that they are not "resting in peace".  If they're in heaven, they don't need that prayer.  If their salvation was in jeopardy, or if they are serving a long sojourn in purgatory, then that prayer.

    I disagree.  Prayers for the repose of a soul presume and clearly imply a hope for the person's salvation, but the person is presumed lost if having died outside the Church or in public sin.

    To say "Rest in Peace" for a Rush Limbaugh, who finished his life with "wife" #4, implies that there's hope for the salvation of someone who lived in sin his entire life.  To say that about any non-Catholic implies that there's hope for salvation for those outside the Church.

    Their salvation is not merely "in jeopardy" but, rather, presumed not to have taken place.

    Prayers are useless for someone who was lost, and such as die outside the Church or in public sin, are presumed lost.  To suggest otherwise is to cause the scandal of suggesting that salvation is possible for someone in those situations.  Coming from a Catholic, furthermore, it suggests that Catholics and the Catholic Church belief that salvation is possible for such a one.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #10 on: April 19, 2021, 12:51:14 AM »
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  • I disagree.  Prayers for the repose of a soul presume and clearly imply a hope for the person's salvation, but the person is presumed lost if having died outside the Church or in public sin.

    To say "Rest in Peace" for a Rush Limbaugh, who finished his life with "wife" #4, implies that there's hope for the salvation of someone who lived in sin his entire life.  To say that about any non-Catholic implies that there's hope for salvation for those outside the Church.

    Their salvation is not merely "in jeopardy" but, rather, presumed not to have taken place.

    Prayers are useless for someone who was lost, and such as die outside the Church or in public sin, are presumed lost.  To suggest otherwise is to cause the scandal of suggesting that salvation is possible for someone in those situations.  Coming from a Catholic, furthermore, it suggests that Catholics and the Catholic Church belief that salvation is possible for such a one.
    I don't make that presumption.  It is beyond any of our pay grades to know whether Our Blessed Lord, in those moments before the soul leaves the body, illuminates these souls with knowledge of the truth, and graces to accept it, if they will indeed cooperate with these graces in the last instant.  Nobody knows.

    I know there are appearances that certain souls died in mortal sin, and that is deeply disturbing (to say the least).  However, I shall hold out hope.  What harm does it do?

    I do agree, insofar as some way, somehow, we should avoid giving non-Catholics the impression that we are pleased with how that soul lived on this side of eternity.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #11 on: April 19, 2021, 07:17:14 AM »
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  • Saying RIP in regards to the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Prince Charles, or any non-Catholic for that matter is an implicit admission of a belief in salvation of those who die outside the Church.

    As if it doesn't matter whether one professes the Catholic faith.

    At the very least, express a desire that such souls converted before they died.
    Agreed.  I've noticed this too.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #12 on: April 19, 2021, 08:49:50 AM »
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  • I think the real answer to all of this is that the phrase "Rest in peace" has lost all catholic meaning, because it's been stolen by our protestantized and paganized american country.  Just like "Merry Christmas" USED to be a catholic, spiritual greeting, based on the Mass.  Or "goodbye" used to mean "God be with ye".
    .
    Everyone uses the phrase now; it's part of american slang.  Impossible to go back in time and fix this. 

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #13 on: April 19, 2021, 09:39:06 AM »
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  • What would be a good alternative to say to Protestants and other non-Catholics?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Saying RIP in regards to non-Catholics
    « Reply #14 on: April 19, 2021, 10:33:08 AM »
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  • What would be a good alternative to say to Protestants and other non-Catholics?
    I actually don't get into the eternal part of it.  I just say "I am deeply sorry for your loss" or something like that.

    I would, however, like to clarify something I said above.  When I said "we should avoid giving non-Catholics the impression that we are pleased with how that soul lived on this side of eternity", I was referring to what religion (if any) they professed, not to their integrity or moral character.  Many non-Catholics are thoroughly decent people --- of course, they play with a thinner rule book, and if Satan has greater power over them because they are on their way to hell anyway, perhaps he doesn't have to tempt them to commit as many sins (I had a non-Catholic relative who admitted this much about himself, I didn't ask him, he brought it up himself!) --- in other words, it would be easier to live by the Seven Commandments than the Ten Commandments --- and their integrity, at least seen through secular eyes, is beyond reproach.  Even the Freemasons thrive on exalting honor, decency, and lives of service to their fellow man.