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Author Topic: Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS  (Read 4559 times)

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Offline Vladimir

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Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
« on: September 07, 2010, 03:05:00 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

    Quote from: 1914 Catholic Encylopedia
    The notion of predestination comprises two essential elements: God's infallible foreknowledge (præscientia), and His immutable decree (decretum) of eternal happiness. The theologian who, following in the footsteps of the Pelagians, would limit the Divine activity to the eternal foreknowledge and exclude the Divine will, would at once fall into Deism, which asserts that God, having created all things, leaves man and the universe to their fate and refrains from all active interference. Though the purely natural gifts of God, as descent from pious parents, good education, and the providential guidance of man's external career, may also be called effects of predestination, still, strictly speaking, the term implies only those blessings which lie in the supernatural sphere, as sanctifying grace, all actual graces, and among them in particular those which carry with them final perseverance and a happy death. Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.


    Is this a contradiction of Cantate Domino?

    Quote from: 1914 Catholic Encylopedia
    When one hears the rigorists, one is tempted to repeat Dieringer's bitter remark: "Can it be that the Church actually exists in order to people hell?" The truth is that neither the one nor the other can be proved from Scripture or Tradition (cf. Heinrich-Gutberlet, "Dogmat. Theologie", Mainz, 1897, VIII, 363 sq.). But supplementing these two sources by arguments drawn from reason we may safely defend as probable the opinion that the majority of Christians, especially of Catholics, will be saved. If we add to this relative number the overwhelming majority of non-Christians (Jєωs, Mahommedans, heathens), then Gener* ("Theol. dogmat. scholast.", Rome, 1767, II, 242 sq.) is probably right when he assumes the salvation of half of the human race, lest "it should be said to the shame and offence of the Divine majesty and clemency that the [future] Kingdom of Satan is larger than the Kingdom of Christ" (cf. W. Schneider, "Das andere Leben", 9th ed., Paderborn, 1908, 476 sq.).


    Is this true as well?

    I've been perusing this site:
    http://romancatholicism.org/

    and have come to question of if God's salvific will is universal, why are the majority of people damned? If God wills that man be saved what is preventing this will to be carried out? (Free will?)




    Offline innocenza

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 03:34:20 PM »
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  • FWIW, Vladimir --

    When I first chanced on that site, I was quite impressed by it.  However, I was warned by two very intelligent and, I believe, well intentioned, traditionalists, to steer clear of it.  It is the work, they advised, of someone hostile to Catholicism who wants to lead unsuspecting faithful by increments to abandon the true religion.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 04:03:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: innocenza
    FWIW, Vladimir --

    When I first chanced on that site, I was quite impressed by it.  However, I was warned by two very intelligent and, I believe, well intentioned, traditionalists, to steer clear of it.  It is the work, they advised, of someone hostile to Catholicism who wants to lead unsuspecting faithful by increments to abandon the true religion.


    Yes, romancatholicism.org is closely associated with "Pope Augustine" et al.

    Offline Matto

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 04:06:58 PM »
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  • 1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
    "The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans."

    Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Telesphorus

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 04:07:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    and have come to question of if God's salvific will is universal, why are the majority of people damned? If God wills that man be saved what is preventing this will to be carried out? (Free will?)


    I don't know, but the Catholic Encyclopedia is not to be trusted on this issue.

    I know you're asking a deeper question, but it's a question that's difficult to answer, that's why there's such a strong tendency to make such remarks that eventually lead to the sort of universalist talk of men like John Paul II.



    Offline Vladimir

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 05:02:06 PM »
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  • Innocenza, Telesphorus

    Thank you for the warning. I had already gathered from the site that it was not a "Catholic" site, and the information that I take from it ought to be examined closely. I'm uninterested in the majority of the information there, I'm merely looking into the Jansenist controversy (as part of my growing interest in Pascal) and that really is the best site for that particular area of history.

    Telesphorus,

    Thank you for your answer. I began to have my suspicions about the authority of the Catholic Encylopedia when I read the critique of so-called "rigorism" (in regards to the number of the saved) and the inclusion of non-Catholic religions in salvation; I will have to ask a priest about this when I have the chance.

    Matto,

    There have been numerous discussions about Cantate Domino and salvation issues on this site that are worth perusing.



    Offline twiceborn

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 07:19:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
    "The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans."

    Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.


    I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2010, 09:48:33 AM »
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  • Quote
    Quote
    Matto said:
    1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
    "The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans."

    Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.


    Quote
    twiceborn said:

    I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.


    I agree that it is nonsense. I am loth to use that word, "heretical" - though I'm not saying it's not. I do not think it is accurate, or speaks the truth of the faith.

    I just want to point out that there is a lot implicated in coming to the conclusion that the CE is "wrong." Such as . . . am I wrong? I don't think so, but we must tread with some caution here, and due humility. Having said that . . . so far I agree with all of you on this.

    The other reflection I want to point out is that, if we are right - it gives one something to think about in the battle against "modernism" and the "spirit of Vatican II." That "spirit" was around for quite some time before the council. Not sure what to make of that, but it's something to think about - it is part of the matrix or the context in which the consideration of these things must occur.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Belloc

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2010, 01:35:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: twiceborn
    Quote from: Matto
    1914 Catholic Encylopedia said:
    "The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans."

    Can someone explain how this quotation is not heretical? This seems to be talking not about baptism of desire or deathbed conversion, but about actual salvation outside the Church.


    I think it is nonsense, I'll take the words of St. Augustine on this (that none of the predestined will die without baptism) over the claims of the CE.


    since I was baptized, then, I am one of the predestined few......whew, been struggling a long time with that stateo f grace thing, good to know, dont have to worry about that now....since Augustine is the lone authority and all on that...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Matto

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #9 on: September 08, 2010, 01:48:14 PM »
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  • Um, are you misreading something? Nobody said that all of the baptized will be saved, especially not Saint Augustine.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline twiceborn

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    « Reply #10 on: September 08, 2010, 02:55:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    since I was baptized, then, I am one of the predestined few......whew, been struggling a long time with that stateo f grace thing, good to know, dont have to worry about that now....since Augustine is the lone authority and all on that...


    Not really, both the predestined and the reprobte can be baptized, receive sufficient and efficacious grace, partake of the sacraments and even do a great deal of supernatural good. Both can also come to genuine faith. Just because you are baptized it does not means that you are one of the predestined.

    The difference lies on the gift of final perseverance, which is given only to the predestined. To the reprobate it is not given.

    I didn't say St. Augustine is the lone authority, but as the Doctor of Grace, he holds a very high authority on these matters as well in matters of faith and morals in general.




    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #11 on: September 08, 2010, 03:27:40 PM »
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  • I don't conclude that the Catholic Encyclopedia is wrong here because I believe Feeneyism is right. (I don't)  It's wrong because it is practically taking for granted the salvation of many categories of people as though such an opinion could be easily harmonized with Catholic teaching.

    Catholics must teach that it is necessary to join the Catholic Church to be saved.

    We are not then entitled to conclude from that, that all the unbaptized are reprobate.  To come to such a conclusion is to come close to making a mockery of Divine Justice.

    Offline Matto

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #12 on: September 08, 2010, 04:43:24 PM »
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  •  :facepalm:
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline twiceborn

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    Salvific Will, Predestination, EENS
    « Reply #13 on: September 08, 2010, 04:52:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    We are not then entitled to conclude from that, that all the unbaptized are reprobate.  To come to such a conclusion is to come close to making a mockery of Divine Justice.


    In light of the Church's teaching that there is not salvation outside her and that baptism is necessary for salvation, how would it be a mockery anymore than those teachings themselves would be?

    The Church says also in one of her councils that the Sacraments received outside of her are of no profit unless the person joins her before he dies. I'll try and find the quote later today.

    In light of the above and The Church's teaching on predestination, it seems to me rather straighforward to conclude that all the predestinate will not only be baptized but die in a state of grace and in communion with The Church.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #14 on: September 08, 2010, 05:55:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: twiceborn
    In light of the above and The Church's teaching on predestination, it seems to me rather straighforward to conclude that all the predestinate will not only be baptized but die in a state of grace and in communion with The Church.


    Except the Church doesn't teach that.