Author Topic: Salvation of Pious Schismatics (Read 2927 times)

St John Evangelist · « **on:** August 06, 2016, 04:44:42 PM »

What about the poor schismatics that are pious? This is the primary objection to strict EENS.

Generations ago, their ancestors cut themselves off from God's Church, and now they are stuck in a sect. They aren't educated, they don't know history, they just follow their bishop/pastor. They confess the Incarnation and the Trinity, pray, fast, do penance, etc.

When they die, does Christ turn them away because their pious acts were done outside the Catholic Church? Are they guilty of schism despite never being a part of the Catholic Church and not willingly separating themselves from the Catholic Church? Shouldn't there be more conversions of pious schismatics converting to the true Church if God requires it for their salvation?

I'm partly playing devil's advocate here, I'm eager to know the answer.

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2016, 05:08:19 PM »

Those who are baptized in the schismatic Churches are freed from original sin and are considered members of the Catholic Church. After they reach the use of reason, they do not become schismatics until they commit the sin of schism by rejecting the Catholic Church themselves. I do not know enough to say when this happens normally, but God does.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2016, 05:44:10 PM »

Either someone is a schismatic or a Catholic. There's no salvation of schismatics, regardless of how pious they might seem. That's a dogma of the Church. If there happens to be such a one as to have so muddled an understanding of the Church as to not even know or understand that they're in schism, then at that point they are still Catholics and are not schismatics. Once they come to understand and recognize that there's this Roman Church out there from which they have split off, then they formally become schismatics. But obviously only God can know when this happens to any particular individual. So, for instance, I grew up not even knowing that Eastern Rites existed. Similarly, some people might grow up in some Orthodox areas where they don't know of any church other than their local Orthodox one. Basically, they remain Catholics from the point of their Baptism until such a time as they come to embrace any concepts or notions that are FORMALLY incompatible with Catholicism.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2016, 05:49:18 PM »

Quote from: St John Evangelist

When they die, does Christ turn them away because their pious acts were done outside the Catholic Church?

If these pious acts were indeed done outside the Catholic Church, then they do not avail for their salvation. God would likely take them into account for other purposes however ... such as mitigating whatever sensible punishment they may have in eternity.

Quote from: St. John Evangelist

Are they guilty of schism despite never being a part of the Catholic Church and not willingly separating themselves from the Catholic Church?

They became part of the Catholic Church at their Baptism. So it's a circular question. If they were baptized (Catholic) and they never embraced any concepts alien to Catholicism, they remained inside the Church and remained Catholics.

Quote from: St. John Evangelist

Shouldn't there be more conversions of pious schismatics converting to the true Church if God requires it for their salvation?

That's not for us to judge. Perhaps they were born into schismatic churches for a reason. God only knows. But we can't do theology based on such speculative and emotional considerations.

St John Evangelist · « **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2016, 12:21:28 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

My views are similar to yours, I think, if not identical. An Ordinariate priest (Anglican convert to the Catholic Church and priest) said that in the Athanasian Creed is what defines a Catholic. I think that there's more to it than that - and apparently he does too seeing as he said that the Anglican church is now apostate - but that is certainly the core of the faith. My gripe is how can a schismatic have divine Catholic faith without the teaching authority of the Catholic magisterium? On what basis does he believe in the articles of the Athanasian Creed? Is he implicitly submitted to the Church's magisterium until he formally contradicts it? Is he implicitly submitted to the Roman pontiff until he formally declares himself independent? There's an extreme vagueness here. What level of consciousness of history does one become blameworthy for rejecting the Church and adhering to one's sect? Is it enough to just know that there is a Roman Church "out there" from which one is separated, with little to no understanding of what the Roman Church is and what it teaches? Do the Eastern schismatics benefit from their sacraments? Do any Protestants stand a chance without the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist?