Author Topic: Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen? (Read 8275 times)

Ambrose · « **Reply #90 on:** April 05, 2014, 06:55:24 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Mystici Corporis
It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Read the whole encyclical.

Alcuin · « **Reply #91 on:** April 05, 2014, 06:58:08 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

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Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #92 on:** April 05, 2014, 06:58:43 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Mystici Corporis
It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Read the whole encyclical.

I have read it, but I understand it in the opposite way that you do.

Just as I understand EENS the opposite of how you understand it.

I understand it to be dogma that pagans, for instance, cannot be saved.

You understand it to be dogma that pagans CAN be saved.

Ambrose · « **Reply #93 on:** April 05, 2014, 06:59:37 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

Ambrose · « **Reply #94 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Mystici Corporis
It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

Read the whole encyclical.

I have read it, but I understand it in the opposite way that you do.

Just as I understand EENS the opposite of how you understand it.

I understand it to be dogma that pagans, for instance, cannot be saved.

You understand it to be dogma that pagans CAN be saved.

Pagans cannot be saved. You obviously do not know I believe, which is what the Church teaches.

Alcuin · « **Reply #95 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

Ambrose · « **Reply #96 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:16:19 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

Alcuin · « **Reply #97 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:47:53 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be

Quote

invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

Ambrose · « **Reply #98 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:50:24 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be
Quote
invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Alcuin · « **Reply #99 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:56:53 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be
Quote
invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Desiring to be a member doesn't make him a member though...right?

Ambrose · « **Reply #100 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:57:28 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be
Quote
invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Desiring to be a member doesn't make him a member though...right?

Correct.

Alcuin · « **Reply #101 on:** April 05, 2014, 07:59:28 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
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Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: Ambrose
Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be
Quote
invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Desiring to be a member doesn't make him a member though...right?

Correct.

But he can be saved?

bowler · « **Reply #102 on:** April 05, 2014, 08:00:11 PM »

How can anyone hope to convince a typical BODer like Ambrose about anything, when Ambrose believes that this CLEAR DOGMA below does not mean that for salvation one has to explicitly believe in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Trinity. Is there any dogma that is clearer? It is the infallible unanimous opinion of the Fathers (clearly expressed in the Athanasian Creed), and not a Father, Doctor or Saint has taught otherwise. Yet Ambrose and ALL the BODers deny it, for they believe that someone can be saved who has no explicit belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation (nor explicit desire to be baptized, nor martyred, nor to be a Catholic.

Quote

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Ambrose · « **Reply #103 on:** April 05, 2014, 08:12:58 PM »

Quote from: Alcuin

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Those with Baptism of Desire are invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire and the fact that they are in the state of grace and adopted sons of God.

Such as a Hindu in Tibet...

What's your point? A Hindu is not a member of the Church.

Then he can't be part of the body. Member = part.

Correct.

So he's outside the body?

Yes.

That's heretical...

It's heretical to believe a Hindu is outside the Church? I am surprised to hear you say that.

It's heretical to say that one outside the body of Christ (the Church) can be saved.

Does dogma surprise you?

No, I was surprised to hear you call me heretical for affirming that a Hindu was outside the body of the Church.

So a Hindu is outside the body of the Church...but he can be saved?

A Hindu cannot be saved. There is no salvation outside the Church. Hindus are outside the Church.

But can't the Hindu be
Quote
invisibly present inside of the visible Church through their desire

If the Hindu man has supernatural Faith, perfect charity, and is desiring to be a member of the Church, he is no longer a Hindu.

Desiring to be a member doesn't make him a member though...right?

Correct.

But he can be saved?

Anyone can be saved if they are baptized or through Baptism of Desire, and die in the State of Grace. No one can be saved who dies outside the Church. A Hindu cannot be saved. A pagan cannot be saved. A schismatic cannot be saved.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #104 on:** April 05, 2014, 08:22:52 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

A Hindu cannot be saved.

Was Bishop Fellay heretical in saying that he could be saved?