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Author Topic: Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?  (Read 8260 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2014, 03:54:18 PM »
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  • And this phrase is bothersome:

    Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre
    I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state the truth.


    It almost comes across as if he doesn't like this truth but is "compelled" to teach it "as a priest".  It's almost like, "Hey, this wasn't my idea, but that of Our Lord.  So we're obliged to speak about it [as personally displeasing as we find it]."  It's like he's embarrassed of this truth ... as "understated" as it was (that's being gentle).

    Offline Cantarella

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #46 on: April 04, 2014, 03:55:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: andysloan
    To Ladislaus,


    What would be your (rough) estimate of the percentage of Traditional Catholics who do not accept BOD?


    15% (that's just made up, a best guess without any empirical evidence)

    Over the years I have met more Novus Ordo Catholics who reject BoD than Traditional Catholics.


    I am afraid this is so. I have met more Novus Ordo Catholics and FSSP that loyally adhere to the EESN dogma as it is written. Most attend the Tridentine Latin Mass said by a diocesan priest.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #47 on: April 04, 2014, 03:59:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I'm taking these types of scenarios off the table.  He just died as a normal practicing Jew.


    He would be lost, for all Eternity.

    Offline andysloan

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #48 on: April 04, 2014, 04:00:02 PM »
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  • And now there is an error in St Anne Catherine Emmerich's revelations as well as St Catherine of Siena's?


    "She was also told that 'more Protestant souls stayed in Purgatory the longest not because they were worse than anyone else, but because so few people prayed for the repose of their souls or offered up Masses for their soul." - St Anne Catherine Emmerich  


       

    1 Corinthians 14:6


    But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #49 on: April 04, 2014, 04:06:11 PM »
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  • I thought you posted that you were no longer going to post with the "BODers".


    Offline clare

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #50 on: April 04, 2014, 04:25:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    We are in desperate need of a Pope who solemnly reaffirm the EESN salutary dogma and restores the absolute exclusivity of the Catholic Church for salvation. Once it is demonstrated that BOD was never actually endowed by God, invincible ignorance will inevitably lose any rational standing as a shortcut to Heaven. This is exactly what I condemn (from my fallible understanding and capacity) in the conciliar Popes: their passivity and ambiguity in defending the most important dogma of all "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus", the real reason for the crisis of Faith.

    It's not only conciliar popes who haven't condemned BOD. Neither have pre-conciliar popes. There was ample opportunity before VII to condemn it by name, explicitly. It never happened though.

    Quote
    17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -> CONDEMNED

    I think the inclusion of the words "good hope", "all", and "at all" are not insignificant.

    The condemned proposition is not "Hope can be entertained of the salvation of those not in the true Church." It is "Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."

    So perhaps it is not condemned to entertain the faint hope of the salvation of some who might be implicitly in the Church. Otherwise why not just phrase the condemned proposition as suggested above, i.e. "Hope can be entertained of the salvation of those not in the true Church"?

    Offline clare

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #51 on: April 05, 2014, 03:23:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    ...
    Quote
    17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -> CONDEMNED

    I think the inclusion of the words "good hope", "all", and "at all" are not insignificant.

    The condemned proposition is not "Hope can be entertained of the salvation of those not in the true Church." It is "Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ."

    So perhaps it is not condemned to entertain the faint hope of the salvation of some who might be implicitly in the Church. Otherwise why not just phrase the condemned proposition as suggested above, i.e. "Hope can be entertained of the salvation of those not in the true Church"?


    In fact, thinking about this some more, it could be argued that one may entertain good hope that some non-Catholics are saved, and even faint hope that all are. We just can't entertain good hope that all are!

    Offline Jehanne

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #52 on: April 05, 2014, 08:32:50 AM »
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  • Any "good hope" that the non-baptized will attain Heaven has been condemned:

    Quote
    "It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned." (Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Blessed Pius X, in 1907)


    The Roman Catechism teaches us who is an infidel:

    Quote
    Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments.


    And,

    Quote
    If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    Note that the Roman Catechism could have said the "sacrament of Baptism," a phrase which was used elsewhere:

    Quote
    And since there is no expiation, no purity, no integrity, in him over whom the divine name has not been invoked, we desire and pray that all mankind may abandon the darkness of their impious infidelity, and, enlightened by the rays of divine light, may come to recognise the power of this name and look to it alone for true sanctity, and that thus receiving the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, they may receive the plenitude of sanctity from the right hand of God Himself.


    The hope at least being:

    Quote
    In this Petition we ask God that the kingdom of Christ, that is, His Church, may be enlarged; that Jews and infidels may embrace the faith of Christ and the knowledge of the true God; that schismatics and heretics may return to soundness of mind, and to the communion of the Church of God which they have deserted; and that thus may be fulfilled and realised the words of the Lord, spoken by the mouth of Isaias: Enlarge the place of thy tent, and stretch out the skins of thy tabernacles; lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes, for thou shalt pass on to the right hand and to the left, for he that made thee shall rule over thee.


    Offline bowler

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #53 on: April 05, 2014, 09:29:44 AM »
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  • The latest Eleison Comment unknowingly highlights exactly the point that Ladislaus is stressing here on his thread, "that traditionalist BODers fail to see how religious indifferentism, the condemned notion that people can be saved in any religion, comes directly from pre Vatican II theology. That there is nothing heretical in Vatican II that BOD adherents already do not believe in anyway.  From the 16 docuмents of Vatican II (only 2 which are entitled "dogmatic") I cannot find a single heretical statement that the BOD believers are not holding themselves anyway.  I still don't know why they reject Vatican II and then proceed to adhere to the same heresies".


    Snippet from the latest "Eleison Comments" by Mgr. Williamson - Issue CCCLI - 351 5th April 2014

    Quote
    CANONISATIONS UNREAL
    The “canonisation”of two Conciliar Popes, John XXIII and John-Paul II, is scheduled for the last Sunday of this month, and many believing Catholics are scared stiff. They know that the Conciliar Popes have been (objective) destroyers of the Church. They know that the Church holds canonisations to be infallible. Are they going to be forced to believe that John XXIII and John-Paul II are Saints ? It boggles the mind. But it need not do so.
    In August of last year these “Comments” stated the fact that Newchurch “canonisations” are such a different reality from pre-Conciliar canonisations that no Catholic need believe that the post-conciliar canonisations are infallible. I was not wrong, but while I stated the fact that this is so, I did not give the reason why, which is a superior way of knowing something. On the contrary in a retreat conference, perhaps of 1989, Archbishop Lefebvre gave the deep-down reason why. This reason – modernist mind-rot -- is crucial to understand correctly the whole Conciliar Revolution.
    The Archbishop said that like a mass of modern men, the Conciliar Popes do not believe in any truth being stable. For instance John-Paul II’s formation was based on truth evolving, moving with the times, progressing with the advance of science, etc.. Truth never being fixed is the reason why in 1988 John-Paul II condemned the SSPX’s Episcopal Consecrations, because they sprang from a fixed and not living or moving idea of Catholic Tradition. For indeed Catholics hold, for example, every word in the Credo to be unchangeable, because the words have been hammered out over the ages to express as perfectly as possible the unchanging truths of the Faith, and these words have been infallibly defined by the Church’s Popes and Councils.
    True canonisations are another example: (1) the Pope pronounces as Pope, (2) such and such a person to be a model of faith and morals, (3) once and for all (nobody used to get uncanonised), (4) for all the Church to accept as such a model. As such, canonisations used to fulfil the four conditions of infallible Church teaching, and they were held to be infallible. But this Catholic idea of an unchangeable truth is inconceivable for fluid modern minds like those of the Conciliar Popes. For them, truth is life, a life developing, evolving, growing towards perfection. How then can a Conciliar Pope perform, let alone impose, an infallible canonisation ?
    The Archbishop imagines how a Conciliar Pope might react to the idea of his having done any such thing: “Oh no ! If ever in the future it turns out that the person I canonised did not have all the qualities required, well, some successor of mine may well declare that I made a declaration on that person’s virtue but not a once and for all definition of their sanctity.” Meanwhile the “canonising” Pope’s “declaration” has made the President of the local Republic and the local Christians happy, and he has given them all an excuse to have a party to celebrate.
    If one thinks about it, this explanation of the Archbishop applies to the Newchurch across the board. What we have in Vatican II is the demanding beauty of God’s unchangeable Truth, which leads to Heaven, being replaced by the undemanding ugliness of man’s fluid fantasy, which may lead to Hell but enables man, as he thinks, to take the place of God. The key step in this process is the unhooking of the mind from reality. When the process is applied today to the Church as modernism, the results are so totally unlike what went before that the new realities absolutely call for new names: Newchurch, Newcanonisations, Newsaints, etc.. After all, are not the Conciliarists proud of making everything new ?

    Kyrie eleison.

    Quote
    truth evolving, moving with the times, progressing with the advance of science............
    For indeed Catholics hold, for example, every word in the Credo to be unchangeable, because the words have been hammered out over the ages to express as perfectly as possible the unchanging truths of the Faith, and these words have been infallibly defined by the Church’s Popes and Councils.



    The Trad BODers deny the very words of the Athanasian Creed (a credo), the unanimous opinion of the Fathers of the Church, the teaching of all the doctors and saints, and the dogmatically defined words of the Council of Florence. In every word, Bp. Williamson is describing the exact action of the trad BODers ALL of who end up believing that someone can be saved who has no explcit desire to be baptized, martyred, or to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trintiy and the Incarnation (Christ), and not a one BODer condemns the notion.
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: bowler


    It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD,  that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. They are denying clear dogma.


    The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved witout explicit belief in Christ


    DOGMA:

     
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

    If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.




    BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

    BODers deny Creeds

     Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

    BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)






    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #54 on: April 05, 2014, 10:54:20 AM »
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    Something that is not lost to history is the fact that Fr. Leonard Feeney had been sidelined (so-called excommunicated -- just like the 6 bishops were later in 1988) because of his firm and uncompromising stand on EENS (and perhaps his questioning of BoD was tossed in for good measure), and the Vatican progressives could see that he was the only man in 1952 who was taking such a stand, which would be a problem for their agenda and the Council to come (10 years later - whether or not they knew it would be that long is insignificant).  They were preparing the way for the Council that would open the door to false ecuмenism, and an implicit denial of EENS, even if they would not pronounce it as such.  

    Remember, the Holy Ghost protected Vat.II from defining dogmatically any kind of error, and this was done by allowing a council to take place where any condemnation of error was to be avoided.  It was actually a direct consequence of no condemnation of error.

    Fr. Feeney was consigned to this fake excommunication for over 20 years, until such time as his health was failing after the Newmass was let loose on the world.  The upper hierarchy of the Church had pity on him, and sent 3 clerics to visit his priory one day.  They came unannounced and without any appointment, as if to catch him by surprise.  They told him that the Church did not want to see him remain in exile and so, they wanted to extend the hand of Christian charity to him, to lift the excom, and to do that, some profession of faith would be required.  Fr. Feeney, in his typically quick wisdom, immediately suggested the Athanasian Creed, and the group of 4, with St. Benedict Center witnesses standing at hand, recited the Athanasian Creed, in Latin, of course.

    You see, it is in the Traditional Breviary every Sunday, in Latin, so all these 4 clerics had been in the habit of reciting it 54 times a year, that is, until the Breviary was changed, but that had only been about 8 years before, and so, even these 3 Novordiens still remembered the Latin, since they had been ordained some 15 or 20 years previously, at least.

    Therefore, the man who had been so-called excomed for his adherence to EENS (even though the excom made no mention of that, still, that was the true reason behind the unprecedented action, as well as his reservations against BoD as it was being promoted), was mysteriously restored to full communion with the Church by pronouncing the very Creed that adheres to EENS just like Fr. had, the Athanasian Creed.  This was therefore a tacit admission that the reason he had been so-called sanctioned was a dead letter, and it had been so all along.

    The whole thing was a big charade ever since 1949, and the 122/49 Protocol Letter (the subject of the OP in another thread).  But even though it was all a smokescreen, it would not make any headlines.  It is up to us to realize that this happened, because in the future, it's the kind of thing that will be denied by liberals with an agenda.  

    Furthermore, anyone who is excommunicated for heresy or for some doctrinal question, must abjure his error before he can be rejoined with the Church.  But no such abjuration was mentioned by these 3 clerics to Fr. Feeney that day.  And it makes sense, because, obviously, he had committed no error in doctrine, so there was nothing to abjure.  

    If the 3 clerics had asked him to abjure an error of some kind, they would have to fabricate one out of thin air, and that would be incriminating, plus, they had abandoned the practice of condemnation of error ever since the M.R.S. of John XXIII in 1962, the year of his new Missal.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #55 on: April 05, 2014, 11:10:02 AM »
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    Post
    Quote from: Cantarella
    The Lumen Gentium docuмent (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) which is entitled “dogmatic” but neither involves any definitive  dogmatic pronouncements, is ambiguous. This is the controversial paragraph:

    16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention".



    Well, obviously the "plan" of salvation includes all mankind. Jesus died in the Cross for all, not just for the elect, but that does not mean (and I can't really find anywhere in the docuмent where it states) that there is actually salvation for those outside the Church.


    The place you'd need to look is in paragraph 8 where it says that the Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church.  It's a much longer sentence, intended to obscure the contents with distractions.  

    Quote from: Lumen Gentium 8
    This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.


    The point of it is that "subsists in" refers to a kind of platform or understructure, a base or foundation, which is the Church of Christ.  It's like saying that the Church of Christ is the supporting structure upon which is built the Catholic Church, and therefore, it leaves open the possibility that there are also other churches built on the same foundation, even though it does not literally say so.  The problem is, it doesn't say this is NOT so, either.  

    The problem is, it doesn't say that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church.  

    This one sentence is the place where liberal and progressive theologians claimed immediately that "therefore, there is salvation outside the Church."  It was not so much written in black and white, but it was preached by priests at conferences, and their listeners wrote it in their notebooks and in the margins of their paperback copies.  I have one such paperback copy that I bought in a bookstore 25 years after the Council had closed.  On that page, where LG8 is written, the previous owner had written, "There IS salvation outside the Church!" in the top margin of the page.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #56 on: April 05, 2014, 11:41:18 AM »
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    I have read that the idea for inserting the phrase "subsists in" came from a protestant minister.  He suggested this term to a Catholic peritus who was advising one of the bishops.  It's not atypical for how the many various errors of Vat.II crept in.  

    These errors were not the work of John XXIII (who is up for Newcanonization soon) and Paul VI (whose cause for beatification should have been stopped cold by the book of Fr. Luigi Villa) directly, however, they were their work INdirectly, since these two popes, especially the former (who is up for Newcanonization soon), allowed into the Council known Modernists, and they even promoted and encouraged these known Modernists to be active and influential in the Council.  

    Therefore, John XXIII and Paul VI are indirectly responsible as the source of the errors, but they are nonetheless DIRECTLY responsible for the erroneous Council itself, since they were pope at the time, and the pope is responsible.  They are directly responsible for the promotion of the errors, because they did not stop them.  It is a pope's job to condemn error, but this is what John XXIII deliberately and specifically declared that he would NOT be doing:  condemning error (cf. M.R.S. of 1962).

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #57 on: April 05, 2014, 03:32:37 PM »
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  • Again, if you have a twofold Church which includes not only actual practicing Catholics but various heretics, schismatics, Jews, etc. then the "subsistence" terminology is actually a very profound way of expressing this reality.  You have the subsistent core which is the Catholic Church proper, consisting of all the visible members, along with various satellite members who are not actually part of the Catholic Church but belong to the Church by desire.

    This has never been addressed b the BoDers.  Whenever I've posted this problem, they ignore it.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #58 on: April 05, 2014, 03:39:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Again, if you have a twofold Church which includes not only actual practicing Catholics but various heretics, schismatics, Jews, etc. then the "subsistence" terminology is actually a very profound way of expressing this reality.  You have the subsistent core which is the Catholic Church proper, consisting of all the visible members, along with various satellite members who are not actually part of the Catholic Church but belong to the Church by desire.

    This has never been addressed b the BoDers.  Whenever I've posted this problem, they ignore it.


    We have answered you.  

    No one is a member of the Catholic Church who is not Baptized.  

    No one is saved who dies outside the Church.

    No one is saved who is not in the state of grace.


    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen?
    « Reply #59 on: April 05, 2014, 03:48:35 PM »
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  • You've done nothing of the sort, Ambrose.  You just bloviate the same series of contradictory principles over and over again.

    If you have Catholics proper in the Church but you also have others who are not visibly part of the Church who can be saved, then if they can be saved they must be part of the Church somehow, to a differing degree.

    Explain then what is wrong with the subsistence terminology.  In that case, the Church truly does merely subsist in the Catholic Church proper.