Author Topic: Salvation of Non Catholics: How Does It Happen? (Read 8253 times)

Cantarella · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2014, 10:26:21 AM »

The Jew cannot be saved.

There is absolutely no salvation for any human being outside actual baptized membership in the Roman Catholic Church.

As I said in the other thread: It is as simple as this: Only Christ goes to Heaven. We are incorporated into Christ's Mystical Body through Baptism. The Church and Christ are one. We must visibly belong to the Catholic Church for salvation. All who enters Heaven dies a Catholic. In order to be a Catholic you must be baptized. There is only ONE Baptism (that of water and of the word).

As St. Augustine explains, what the soul is to a body of man, the Holy Ghost is to the body of Christ, which is the church. If something gets cut off from the body, the Spirit does not follow. Those outside the church have not the Spirit, (The Holy Ghost within them). Only Catholics are members of Christ own Body.

Cantarella · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2014, 10:29:42 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

God knows.

Never mind that God already incarnated in Jesus Christ to reveal the ONLY way of salvation and the New LAW. :rolleyes:

Only through Baptism we are given an actual share in the Divine nature of Christ. The Church has infallibly defined what is needed for Baptism to take place. No need to inquiry further just because of our own subjective sentimental views on "justice" or to feel comfortable in a world plagued by unbelievers, heretics, and apostates. The desire for Baptism does not effect any of these. No need to inquiry further. No need to play God. No need to say but "what if".

Again, Christ already came to earth to teach how God wishes to be glorified and the New Law of Salvation. There is NOTHING He left unsaid.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2014, 10:33:10 AM »

Well, I'll have to answer for them based on previous track record. Since they have accused me of heresy for saying that a Jew cannot be saved, I'll have to assume that their answer is yes. LoT did answer yes.

So this Jew is saved because he believes in the existence of a God who rewards good and punishes evil, and he believes it not by natural reason alone by because he has the formal motive of faith due to believing it on the authority of God revealing in the Old Testament. He believes natural truths with a supernatural motive.

Meanwhile, the Protestant believes in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Incarnation, and he believes it based on the authority of the New Testament and so believes supernatural truths with a formally supernatural motive.

So, based on this response, please explain to me how the following statement from Vatican II (considered by Traditional Catholics to be the single most heretical statement in all of the V2 docuмents) is not actually QUITE TRUE:

Quote from: Unitatis Redintegratio

For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [separated Churches and Communities] as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

So the aforementioned Jew came to believe in God as a rewarder / punisher due to being raised in his Jєωιѕн religion, and his Jєωιѕн religion also taught him that the Old Testament was revealed by God, so the means by which he was saved and provided with these salvific truths was in fact his Jєωιѕн relgion. Now the Jєωιѕн religion has become salvific for him.

And the aforementioned Protestant similarly was taught about the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the fact that Holy Scripture is God's revelation, in his religion. So his Protestant religion was salvific for him.

Judaism and Protestantism both in fact are used here by the Holy Spirit as a means for bringing them to salvation ... although their efficacy derives from the Church, since they by means of these truths come into the Catholic Church.

crossbro · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2014, 10:51:49 AM »

I am tired of people trying to find a loophole.

BOD and COD or whatever else you want to throw in there simply tries to write God out of the equation, that somehow out of circuмstance or through our own merit we can it without God.

It is God who makes the rules, not us. Let go and let God.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2014, 10:59:45 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

No, I think it's because you're afraid of the truth. If you're honestly seeking the truth, then you'll have no problem honestly answering the question.

So you now are the source of Truth? Good Lord, save me.

moneil · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:12:39 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

I'm a little perplexed. Despite the fact that many have accused me of heresy for saying "no" to this question, no one seems brave enough to come forward and say "yes". Why is that?

God, only God, and God alone is the Judge. HE and HE alone chooses whom HE will save. It is not a human’s place to say if a particular person can be saved, or not. That judgment is left to God alone.

The Church teaches, and Her faithful believe, that The Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by God through His Divine Son, and that it contains the One True Faith by which one can be saved. This is in deed our belief and understanding. We also believe that our understanding is limited, not incorrect, but limited, as St. Paul teaches us several times in the Epistles (I apologize that I do not have time to look up specific references at the moment).

Those who have been given the grace to have been born into and baptized in the Catholic Church and raised in the True Faith, and those who have found the True Faith through conversion and baptism later in life, know well their responsibilities. If they ignore the opportunities given to live a life in sanctifying grace they do so to their eternal peril (yet still, it is God who will ultimately judge their condition).

Those in the Catholic Church also, I believe, have the responsibility to help others encounter the One True Faith and to find their way into it, to the extent that God provides opportunity and grace in their particular circuмstance. This responsibility is explicit in Scripture and in the teachings of the Church. Especially in these present times, though it is a phenomena that has always existed across history, the faithful must be vigilant against an attitude of indifference and must always be open to those opportunities that God may present to help bring someone into the True Church. The Church as a visible entity (Rome, diocese, parish, chapel, institute, society, order, etc.) also must, always in charity, boldly evangelize the world.

With this all said, at the end it is still God, only God, and God alone Who is the Judge. When humans (with our limited understanding) start declaring “who can go to heaven and who can’t” it seems a bit impertinent, perhaps even blasphemous. I certainly have a LOT of improvement to make in this department myself, but I’m thinking if we spent more time, effort, and prayer in our own spiritual life AND in being a good example to those immediately around us who need to find the True Faith, rather than being “dogmatic” about the eternal fate of stillborns, devote Jews, faithful Presbyterians, or un-churched aborigines, The Church might actually start having an impact on the world.

In the Gospel of St. Matthew Chapter 25, verses 31 -36 there is an explicit description of the Judgment. This is the appointed Gospel for the Monday after the First Sunday of Lent in the Roman Missal. I personally know non Catholics who fit Our Lord’s criteria here better than many Catholics, myself included. I am not saying that this is the only criteria, or that someone can go to heaven just because they are a seemingly good person, though outside the Church. Nor is it my place to say that even though a person fits the criteria given by Our Lord they will go to hell because they were outside the Church at the time of death (by our limited human understanding of that). Likewise it is not my place to be indifferent and to not do whatever I might to help someone come into the Church.

So, back to the “?” a few paragraphs later, I think it is the wrong question to ask. The Church Militant knows what their role and responsibilities are. We should focus on that and leave the judgment of each individual soul to God (with much prayer on our part) as that is HIS sole prerogative.

Alcuin · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:23:07 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Ladislaus
No, I think it's because you're afraid of the truth. If you're honestly seeking the truth, then you'll have no problem honestly answering the question.

So you now are the source of Truth? Good Lord, save me.

Classic!

Nishant · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:31:15 AM »

I've seen the below explanation in the past cited approvingly by Bowler here, funnily enough.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

Has been validly baptized;
Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Quote from: Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism by Thomas L Kinkead, 1891

All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:49:21 AM »

Let's not digress onto broader BoD issues. That's why all these threads spin out of control. If one allows the possibility that these people described below CAN be saved, then please explain what's wrong with that passage from Vatican II.
...

Well, I'll have to answer for them based on previous track record. Since they have accused me of heresy for saying that a Jew cannot be saved, I'll have to assume that their answer is yes. LoT did answer yes.

So this Jew is saved because he believes in the existence of a God who rewards good and punishes evil, and he believes it not by natural reason alone but because he has the formal motive of faith due to believing it on the authority of God revealing in the Old Testament. He believes natural truths with a supernatural motive.

Meanwhile, the Protestant believes in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Incarnation, and he believes it based on the authority of the New Testament and so believes supernatural truths with a formally supernatural motive.

So, based on this response, please explain to me how the following statement from Vatican II (considered by Traditional Catholics to be the single most heretical statement in all of the V2 docuмents) is not actually QUITE TRUE:

Quote from: Unitatis Redintegratio

For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [separated Churches and Communities] as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

So the aforementioned Jew came to believe in God as a rewarder / punisher due to being raised in his Jєωιѕн religion, and his Jєωιѕн religion also taught him that the Old Testament was revealed by God, so the means by which he was saved and provided with these salvific truths was in fact his Jєωιѕн relgion. Now the Jєωιѕн religion has become salvific for him.

And the aforementioned Protestant similarly was taught about the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, and the fact that Holy Scripture is God's revelation, in his religion. So his Protestant religion was salvific for him.

Judaism and Protestantism both in fact are used here by the Holy Spirit as a means for bringing them to salvation ... although their efficacy derives from the Church, since they by means of these truths come into the Catholic Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:51:28 AM »

I will aggressively try to keep this thread on topic. Please refrain from broader posts on BoD. I'm not interested here in whether or not there exists BoD. I'm trying to discuss whether, given the existence of an implicit BoD that can save the Jew and the Protestant as described, how does the Vatican II passage cited contain any error or heresy?

crossbro · « **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2014, 11:56:14 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

I will aggressively try to keep this thread on topic. Please refrain from broader posts on BoD. I'm not interested here in whether or not there exists BoD. I'm trying to discuss whether, given the existence of an implicit BoD that can save the Jew and the Protestant as described, how does the Vatican II passage cited contain any error or heresy?

You cannot skirt BOD without disrespecting Jesus on John 3:5.

It is as simple as that, it is all about BOD. You may as well ask people to post about mac and cheese and tell them you are not interested in boiling water.

Nishant · « **Reply #26 on:** April 04, 2014, 12:05:41 PM »

Ladislaus, please read the explanation of the Baltimore Catechism posted above, and tell me if you agree with it. It addresses just precisely the case of the Protestant you mention (by the way, it won't be BOD because Protestants are baptized, but perfect contrition), who is raised in inculpable ignorance of the true Church. A child baptized in a heretical sect, shortly after the age of reason for example.

Now, to come to the question of Vatican II - it's complicated. The texts the traditional Fathers prepared in the beginning were orthodox. The texts the liberals wanted and made this into were blatantly and appallingly heretical. Whereas the final product we got, a mix of both, was arrived at by the conservative Fathers doing the maximum damage control they could, trying to correct horrible assertions with spoonfuls of orthodoxy here and there. Because they did this, some of even the Faith's defenders' at the end signed the decrees.

What is the ultimate effect? We have ambiguous texts which to this day are used to justify innovations and novelties against the Faith and Tradition.

Can the text you cited be read in an orthodox way? Yes, with difficulty. As is the case for most of the Council. But in practice, is it really read like that? No. And therein lies the problem. 50 years on, the disastrous effects that followed in the wake of this Council still afflict the Church.

Cantarella · « **Reply #27 on:** April 04, 2014, 12:31:59 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

I've seen the below explanation in the past cited approvingly by Bowler here, funnily enough.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism

Q. 509. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved.

Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?

A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:

Has been validly baptized;
Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

Quote from: Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism by Thomas L Kinkead, 1891

All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

This passage is referring to a non - Catholic Christian. A heretic protestant or schismatic Orthodox ONLY. According to the Church, these people are validly baptized. I think that is key in understanding that passage from the fallible (and erroneous) Baltimore Catechism.

The mentioned passage from Vatican II Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecuмenism, which is not a dogmatic infallible docuмent) grants that the separate churches and communities can be indeed salvific, which is heresy.

Cantarella · « **Reply #28 on:** April 04, 2014, 12:41:19 PM »

The Lumen Gentium docuмent (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) which is entitled “dogmatic” but neither involves any definitive dogmatic pronouncements, is ambiguous. This is the controversial paragraph:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention".

Well, obviously the "plan" of salvation includes all mankind. Jesus died in the Cross for all, not just for the elect, but that does not mean (and I can't really find anywhere in the docuмent where it states) that there is actually salvation for those outside the Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** April 04, 2014, 01:27:35 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

The mentioned passage from Vatican II Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecuмenism, which is not a dogmatic infallible docuмent) grants that the separate churches and communities can be indeed salvific, which is heresy.

Whether it's heresy or not isn't even my point. What I'm trying to illustrate is that it's not heretical if one thinks that Faith of Desire is Catholic. In fact, there's nothing wrong with it if you believe that Protestants and Jews can be saved.