Author Topic: Saints and Church Fathers on baptism of desire (Read 6568 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #15 on:** August 17, 2009, 02:46:29 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

GO!

Ah, the glories of teamwork! :alcohol: Thank you!

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #16 on:** August 17, 2009, 02:50:42 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Strict adherence to the infallible dogmatic declarations is extreme?

If the "strictness" is opposed to what the Church herself teaches, yes.

Out of curiosity, what exactly do you think the heresies of Calvin, for example, were all about?

He placed undue emphasis upon one of two complimentary truths, eventually denying one of them altogether. That is how it works.

Quote

It's a rather more precarious position to think we can deny them, Gladius. That is the position you hold.

It is kind of obvious that my response to such is: "No, I do not."

CM · « **Reply #17 on:** August 17, 2009, 03:29:04 AM »

I don't know how you can reconcile the decree from Vienne, for example, without denying it outright.

One sentence it says that all are faithfully to prrofess ONE baptism that regenerates all who are baptized in Christ, and the next sentence describes that very baptism.

It is a closed case. There is no baptism other than that, which regenerates those baptized in Christ. And all the other decrees, though worded in different ways, all support the very same understanding.

CM · « **Reply #18 on:** August 17, 2009, 03:30:26 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
GO!

Ah, the glories of teamwork! :alcohol: Thank you!

My pleasure. It was driving me nuts.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:13:51 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

One sentence it says that all are faithfully to profess ONE baptism that regenerates all who are baptized in Christ, and the next sentence describes that very baptism.

Yes, it does, and this is what I believe. Let us get ONE thing straight:

Those who believe there are such things as BoD and BoB do NOT believe in THREE Baptisms, but in THREE WAYS to receive the GRACE of the ONE Baptism (just as there are TWO WAYS to receive the GRACE of Penance or Holy Communion, although in each case there is only ONE sacrament). Even if you disagree with me on this point, at least try to understand said point accurately, not in a distorted manner.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:19:30 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Those who believe there are such things as BoD and BoB do NOT believe in THREE Baptisms...

...in the sense of THREE Sacraments.

CM · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2009, 04:25:46 AM »

"All are faithfully to profess that there is one baptism which regenerates all those baptized in Christ, just as there is one God and one faith'. We believe that when baptism is administered in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Spirit, it is a perfect means of salvation for both adults and children."

BoD and BoB are NOT administered in water.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2009, 05:05:40 AM »

Really? Thanks for clarifying that for me, CM.

How is a spiritual communion 'administered'? Any Sacred Host involved? Is the grace of the sacrament still imparted? Yes.

CM · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2009, 05:54:18 AM »

Show me the quote that Spiritual communion denies.

clare · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:02:36 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

Show me the quote that Spiritual communion denies.

"Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."

Or words to that effect.

clare · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:04:29 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Really? Thanks for clarifying that for me, CM.

How is a spiritual communion 'administered'? Any Sacred Host involved? Is the grace of the sacrament still imparted? Yes.

Then there's perfect acts of contrition. Or is it acts of perfect contrition?

CM · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:13:48 AM »

He was speaking to the Apostles, who had the means to partake in his Body and Blood. He said "YOU".

Now compare this with St. John 3:5 "Unless a man," he was referring to mankind in general.

The Church has used this verse from Scripture in an infallible decree, at the Council of Florence, using words that, when taken literally (and why should we not? the words are infallible), insist on the absolute necessity that each person who will be saved is baptized in water:

"Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments, for it is the gate of the spiritual life; through it we become members of Christ and of the body of the church. Since death came into the world through one person, unless we are born again of water and the spirit, we cannot, as Truth says, enter the kingdom of heaven."

Furthermore, the Holy Catholic Church has never used the verse you quote in any way to describe the absolute necessity that every person receive the Eucharist for salvation.

The only time that this quote has been used in an infallible Council was at the Council of Ephesus, defending the natures of Christ:

"For being life by nature as God, when he became one with his own flesh, he made it also to be life-giving, as also he said to us: "Amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood" . For we must not think that it is the flesh of a man like us (for how can the flesh of man be life-giving by its own nature?), but as being made the true flesh [vere proprium eius factam] of the one who for our sake became the son of man and was called so.

"For we do not divide up the words of our Saviour in the gospels among two hypostases or persons. For the one and only Christ is not dual..."

The Eucharist is held as a necessity of precept (the omission of which is a sin when it is able to be lawfully had at the hands of a Catholic clergymen, according to the precept of the Church), whereas the Sacrament of Baptism is held as a necessity of means (the omission of which renders the effects impossible to attain, whether such omission is culpable or inculpable).

CM · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:18:38 AM »

The Act of Contrition is a prayer.

And act of perfect contrition is the sorrow a person feels for having displeased the divine Majesty, and it is motivated entirely by charity and not by the fear of punishment (which is attrition) and the Council of Trent explicitly teaches:

"The Synod teaches moreover, that, although it sometimes happen that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament be actually received, the said reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament which is included therein."

The error of so many baptism of desire heretics, is that they think all sacraments work the same way, despite that they are described very differently. Again, they ignore the objective sense of the decrees, and they assert that one decree can contradict another (though they can't bring themselves to admit it).

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #28 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:22:51 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Martyr

He was speaking to the Apostles, who had the means to partake in his Body and Blood. He said "YOU"...

Save the sophistry, CM. He was speaking to a CROWD of people:

"...51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jєωs therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day..."

It is plain "them" in this case is "the Jєωs" who were striving amongst themselves.

Did you just cut and paste your response from the Dimonds or some such source?

CM · « **Reply #29 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:27:24 AM »

No. But if the Dimonds make the same argument, then they got something right.