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Author Topic: Saint Thomas on implicit faith.  (Read 6126 times)

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Offline bowler

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Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2014, 09:09:08 AM »
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  • You are not right in the head.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #61 on: April 15, 2014, 09:26:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    But they can implicitly have explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.


    What about those folks who lived prior to the dogma of the Holy Trinity being defined but who lived after the coming of Christ?


    That dogma of the Holy Trinity was taught from the very beginning by the Church, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.


    Quote
    The New manifested the Son, and suggested the Deity of the Spirit. Now the Spirit Himself dwells among us, and supplies us with a clearer demonstration of Himself.


    I'm still at a loss here.  Every Catholic believes that the dogma of the Holy Trinity was taught from the very beginning of the Church by the Apostles.  If at a later time additional clarifications were made by the Magisterium (in condemning various erroneous VIEWS of the Holy Trinity), that doesn't mean that early Christians had no explicit faith in the Holy Trinity.  You're gravely mistaken on this point.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #62 on: April 15, 2014, 10:25:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    You are not right in the head.


    A "cheap shot," Bowler:

    Quote
    The holy synod especially condemns and censures, in the book, the assertion which is scandalous, erroneous in the faith and offensive to the ears of the pious faithful, namely: Christ sins daily and has sinned daily from his very beginning, even though he avers that he does not understand this as of Christ our saviour, head of the church, but as referring to his members, which together with Christ the head form the one Christ, as he asserts. Also, the propositions, and ones similar to them, which the synod declares are contained in the articles condemned at the sacred council of Constance, namely the following. Not all the justified faithful are members of Christ, but only the elect, who finally will reign with Christ for ever. The members of Christ, from whom the church is constituted, are taken according to the ineffable foreknowledge of God; and the church is constituted only from those who are called according to his purpose of election. To be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed. Also the following. The human nature in Christ is really Christ. The human nature in Christ is the person of Christ. The intimate cause that determines the human nature in Christ is not really distinguished from the nature that is determined. The human nature in Christ is without doubt the person of the Word; and the Word in Christ, once the nature has been assumed, is really the person who assumes. The human nature assumed by the Word in a personal union is truly God, natural and proper. Christ according to his created will loves the human nature united to the person of the Word as much as he loves the divine nature. Just as two persons in God are equally lovable, so the two natures in Christ, the human and the divine, are equally lovable on account of the common person. The soul of Christ sees God as clearly and intensely as God sees himself.


    Perhaps, Bowler, I am "invincibly ignorant" in not understanding words which I read.  I am sorry for my disorder; it appears that the rest of the universal Catholic Church is suffering from the same disorder which is plaguing me.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #63 on: April 15, 2014, 10:32:22 AM »
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  • Jehanne, it's quite clear that you don't understand the quotes you're posting because they have absolutely nothing to do with BoD.

    The errors being condemned above involve asserting that only the elect (those predestined to be saved) are members of the Church.

    Even the BoDers would admit that more than "charity" is required to be a member of the Church.  You're taking this stuff totally out of context.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #64 on: April 15, 2014, 10:44:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I'm still at a loss here.  Every Catholic believes that the dogma of the Holy Trinity was taught from the very beginning of the Church by the Apostles.  If at a later time additional clarifications were made by the Magisterium (in condemning various erroneous VIEWS of the Holy Trinity), that doesn't mean that early Christians had no explicit faith in the Holy Trinity.  You're gravely mistaken on this point.


    It was taught but not in the fullness which the Church herself understood it in later centuries.  This is why Saint Thomas taught that such truths could be believed implicitly:

    Quote
    "It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ, without faith in the Trinity, since the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh; that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Ghost; and again, that He was conceived by the Holy Ghost.  Wherefore just as, before Christ, the mystery of Christ was believed explicitly by the learned, but implicitly and under a veil, so to speak, by the simple, so too was it with the mystery of the Trinity.  And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity: and all who are born again in Christ, have this bestowed on them by the invocation of the Trinity, according to Matthew 28:19: 'Going therefore teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.'" (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.2, a.8)


    One is not bound to believe in the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Blessed Trinity but only "once grace had been revealed."  It is a necessity of precept as opposed to a necessity of means.  What you are trying to argue is that explicit faith in the mysteries of the Incarnation and Blessed Trinity are a necessity of means, which means embracing the following absurditiy:

    Quote
    On the Day of Pentecost, numerous pagans who had implicit faith in Christ fell from grace without their knowledge and/or consent.


    In other words, the First Coming of Jesus Christ was a disaster for any virtuous pagans.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #65 on: April 15, 2014, 10:51:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Jehanne, it's quite clear that you don't understand the quotes you're posting because they have absolutely nothing to do with BoD.

    The errors being condemned above involve asserting that only the elect (those predestined to be saved) are members of the Church.

    Even the BoDers would admit that more than "charity" is required to be a member of the Church.  You're taking this stuff totally out of context.


    If a person is united to Christ through "the bonds of charity," then the Council of Florence is, clearly, saying that "no other union is needed", which means that love, hence, obedience, to the commands of God are all that is needed for a person to be united to Christ, who is God, and hence, His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church.   Therefore, if a person, through no fault of his own, is simply ignorant of the commands of Christ (namely, to be baptized and submit himself/herself to the Roman Pontiff), then such a person could be in a state of grace through his/her implicit desire to receive the Sacraments, out of their love for God, who is Christ.  That is what the Council of Florence is teaching.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #66 on: April 15, 2014, 11:08:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    One is not bound to believe in the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Blessed Trinity but only "once grace had been revealed."  It is a necessity of precept as opposed to a necessity of means.  What you are trying to argue is that explicit faith in the mysteries of the Incarnation and Blessed Trinity are a necessity of means


    No, knowledge of these mysteries required as the matter for suprenatural faith, as per the Vatican I quote; theologians who hold that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation are required for salvation do not teach that this is by necessity of precept only.  Otherwise, this position becomes completely meaningless ... as you are desperately trying to make it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #67 on: April 15, 2014, 11:11:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote
    On the Day of Pentecost, numerous pagans who had implicit faith in Christ fell from grace without their knowledge and/or consent.


    In other words, the First Coming of Jesus Christ was a disaster for any virtuous pagans.


    Take up your objections with St. Thomas Aquinas ... and with God.

    God allows every soul to be born in a certain time at a certain place with a certain purpose.  Any truly "virtuous" pagans would have been appropriately evangelized by the Apostles and the disciples, and God would have kept them alive long enough to receive the Gospel.

    You turn the Catholic Church into a disaster, something which is an impediment to salvation rather than a help.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #68 on: April 15, 2014, 11:14:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    If a person is united to Christ through "the bonds of charity," then the Council of Florence is, clearly, saying that "no other union is needed", which means that love, hence, obedience, to the commands of God are all that is needed for a person to be united to Christ, who is God, and hence, His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church.   Therefore, if a person, through no fault of his own, is simply ignorant of the commands of Christ (namely, to be baptized and submit himself/herself to the Roman Pontiff), then such a person could be in a state of grace through his/her implicit desire to receive the Sacraments, out of their love for God, who is Christ.  That is what the Council of Florence is teaching.


    No, the Council of Florence is teaching nothing of the sort.  As with every other quote you take it out of context.  See my previous post.  Ask your fellow BoDers; the unbaptized are not members of the Church.

    Like all the BoDers you simply believe what you want to believe because YOU have decided that anything else would be unfair for God to do.

    Thus you illustrate the only theological premise behind BoD, your human judgments about what God should or should not do.  What incredible hubris.

    St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

    Offline Nishant

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #69 on: April 15, 2014, 11:30:36 AM »
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  • Except, Bowler, that I didn't do anything beside quote and underline. I've given up on trying to explain things to you. So your problem is with the quoted authorities, and not with me.

    Quote from:  St. Thomas, ST, Ia IIae, q.89, a.6)
    It is impossible for venial sin to be in anyone with original sin alone, and without mortal sin.  The reason for this is because before a man comes to the age of discretion, the lack of years hinders the use of reason and excuses him from mortal sin, wherefore, much more does it excuse him from venial sin, if he does anything which is such generically. But when he begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin.  Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself. And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, and as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, for through not doing that which is in his power to do. Accordingly thenceforward there cannot be venial sin in him without mortal, until afterwards all sin shall have been remitted to him through grace.


    Quote from: St. Alphonsus, Commentary on the Council of Trent
    Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."


    I underline because you still dubiously claim these quotes are about catechumens, as I would expect just about everyone beside you can see that they are not. If you still can't see that however, then I suggest going back to your 8th grade English grammar.

    Unlike you, the others who agree with you have at least frankly stated that they disagree with these Doctors on this point. Whenever you come around, you should do the same.

    By the way, if theologians want to say justification happens only by explicit faith, as indeed it does after the Gospel has been promulgated in a particular place, they say love of Christ in particular, and not love of God in general.

    Pope Leo XIII, St. Pius X and Pius XII teach the same as these Doctors above, that where baptism cannot be had, an act of perfect love of God can supply the baptismal effect.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #70 on: April 15, 2014, 12:09:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Jehanne
    One is not bound to believe in the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Blessed Trinity but only "once grace had been revealed."  It is a necessity of precept as opposed to a necessity of means.  What you are trying to argue is that explicit faith in the mysteries of the Incarnation and Blessed Trinity are a necessity of means


    No, knowledge of these mysteries required as the matter for suprenatural faith, as per the Vatican I quote; theologians who hold that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation are required for salvation do not teach that this is by necessity of precept only.  Otherwise, this position becomes completely meaningless ... as you are desperately trying to make it.


    Quote
    The subject of the salvation of sincere non-Catholics was on the agenda of the Vatican Council. For this purpose the two docuмents of Pius IX on invincible ignorance were quoted in extenso and the essential terms were fully explained. “By the words, ‘those who labor in invincible ignorance’ is indicated the possibility that a person may not belong to the visible and external communion of the Church, and yet may attain to justification and eternal life.” [25] Moreover the saving clause on invincibility was incorporated into a proposed definition, namely, “It is a dogma of faith that no one can be saved outside the Church. However, those who labor in invincible ignorance of Christ and His Church are not to be punished for this ignorance with eternal pains, since they are not burdened with guilt on this account in the eyes of God, who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and who does not deny His grace to the person who does what he can, to enable him to attain to justification and eternal life. But this salvation no one attains, who leaves this life culpably separated from the unity of faith and communion of the Church.” [26] Consequently, although the doctrine of Pius IX remained part of the unfinished business of the Vatican Council and was not formally defined, it is certainly definable and may be called proxima fidei or “practically of faith.”

    However, the council did manage to express itself more directly on the subject in another context. The final draft of the Constitution on the Faith (infallibly defined) includes two successive statements. First an exposition of the object of faith, that “by divine and Catholic faith all those things must be believed which are contained in the word of God, written or handed down, and which are proposed by the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary magisterium, as having to be believed.” Then a declaration on the necessity of faith, that “Since without faith it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children, therefore, without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end.” [27] The essential word in the second statement is evidently “faith.” But what kind of faith is meant. If it means an explicit Catholic faith, then Pius IX is wrong; if it means anything less, then his position on the prospective salvation of non-Catholics is implied in a solemn conciliar definition. Fortunately we do not have to resort to conjecture because the proceedings of the Vatican Council settle the question beyond dispute.

    In the original draft of the dogmatic constitution, the pertinent passage, describing the necessity of faith, was logically connected with the preceding paragraph on the scope of Catholic belief. After giving the object of the Catholic faith, the docuмent continued: “This is that faith without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children. Wherefore, just as without it justification never comes to anyone, so, no one, unless he shall have persevered in the same unto the end, will obtain eternal life.” [28]

    But before the final and definite form was drawn up and presented to the council for acceptance, an important emendation was made and the reason for the change explained to the assembly by the delegate for the Commission De Fide. “We have made a substitution,” he said, “in the paragraph which begins, ‘This is that faith…’ The emendation of the beginning of this paragraph is the following, namely, that instead of the words, ‘This is that faith…’ there be substituted the following words, ‘Since, without faith, it is impossible to please God…Unless he shall have persevered in faith unto the end.’ I explained to you yesterday, Most Reverend Fathers, our reason for this change. The reason, to repeat in brief, is this: to remove the close connection between this and the preceding paragraph, lest it appear that an act of the Catholic faith is necessary for salvation, for all people. For this is false. I ask you, therefore, to accept the formula modified by us.” [29] They accepted the revised formula, verbatim, and the reason for the change, we may infer, was also accepted by the Vatican Council to be solemnly confirmed by Pius IX, that a person can reach heaven by professing that faith without which no one can please God, but not necessarily the explicit faith of the Roman Catholic Church.


    http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_032.htm


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #71 on: April 15, 2014, 12:18:30 PM »
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  • Jehanne, you're just spamming unrelated material that you think proves your point without addressing each of my posts.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #72 on: April 15, 2014, 01:01:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne


    If a person is united to Christ through "the bonds of charity," then the Council of Florence is, clearly, saying that "no other union is needed", which means that love, hence, obedience, to the commands of God are all that is needed for a person to be united to Christ, who is God, and hence, His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church.   Therefore, if a person, through no fault of his own, is simply ignorant of the commands of Christ (namely, to be baptized and submit himself/herself to the Roman Pontiff), then such a person could be in a state of grace through his/her implicit desire to receive the Sacraments, out of their love for God, who is Christ.  That is what the Council of Florence is teaching.


    Implicit Faith in Christ does not suffice for salvation. In this paragraph there is a total denial of the absolute need of the Church and Her Sacraments for salvation, her very reason for being.  With all due respect, this paragraph may as well be written by a heretical protestant. The Council of Florence did not teach that,  on the contrary,  it taught infallibly the necessity of water Baptism for entrance to the Church, that is to say, to Christ. We cannot be inserted into Christ through desire, charity,  or good works only.

    Statements like this demonstrate a total ignorance on the extent of the original sin, which can only be remitted through water baptism and the absolute need for the Church and her priesthood to dispense the Sacraments imposed by Christ Lord Himself.

    Pope Pius X repeatly said that the first thing the devil attacks in the Church is original sin, for if it is done away with, there is no reason for the Incarnation,  we then have no need for the supernatural.... The Church has taught infallibly that there is only ONE Baptism for the remission of sin. To say otherwise is not only erroneous,  but is actually condemned.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #73 on: April 15, 2014, 01:18:25 PM »
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  • Even a schimatic Orthodox would be more loyal to the necessity of Sacraments for Salvation, I'm afraid. A Roman Catholic saying this non sense is painful.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline bowler

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    Saint Thomas on implicit faith.
    « Reply #74 on: April 15, 2014, 01:27:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne

    Quote
    The subject of the salvation of sincere non-Catholics was on the agenda of the Vatican Council. [/b].


    http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_032.htm


    This is not a docuмent from Vatican I.  We post dogmas, you post rejected agendas. That's why I say you are not right in the head.