Author Topic: Saint Thomas on implicit faith. (Read 6121 times)

bowler · « **Reply #45 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:10:23 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Nishant
..
At the same time, with St. Thomas and other Doctors, we should say, as a pious and probable opinion, if anyone sincerely loves God, in the New dispensation, although he can be immediately justified, still God will lead Him to explicit faith in Jesus, at least by an interior illumination, before the end of his life. But we are informed by every single authority who has written on the question, including after and before the Magisterial teaching of Pius IX on the subject, that this is only a point of pious and probable belief.

Except St. Thomas did not say that Implict Faith was a pious and probable opinion, and no Father, Doctor, or Saint taught salvation by implicit faith, and it is directly opposed to the dogma of Florence and the Athanasian Creed.

With "friends" like you who needs enemies? You are no different that any progressivist modernist on this matter. You are CLEARLY defending salvation with no explicit desire to be baptized/martyred/or Catholic, nor explicit belief in Christ.

Nishant and all BODers say:

I believe that to be saved, one must have at a minimum, explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

I believe that one can also be saved who has no explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

Mama ChaCha · « **Reply #46 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:12:39 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

Mama Chacha, what I cited in my first post is from the Church's Doctor of moral theology in his Theologia Moralis. St. Pius X and Pius XII among several other pontiffs expressly accord this work unparalleled praise, showing that it reflects the mind of the Church, and especially approve this holy Doctor's teaching in it as a strongly recorded norm and entirely safe to teach and follow.

Even beside that, St. Pius X himself personally teaches the same in his Catechism anyway, that when baptism cannot be had, an act of perfect love of God produces the baptismal effect, which is justification.

In a justified soul, nothing else is required for salvation than that he die in grace. But we can piously believe that no soul who has persevered in the grace received will fail to be enlightened by God about Jesus before the end of his life. A few theologians deny this last point. That is, in essence, the difference between the two opinions St. Alphonsus discusses and what he favors as more probable.

It is not a huge concern for me, I was just curious about what the actual issue of the famous debate really was. I trust in the mercy of God, even though I know that most people will choose to love and serve themselves over loving and serving God, and I don't for one second believe that God would deny anyone who really loved and wanted to serve Him. Call it stupidity or inherent knowledge or whatever anyone wants to call it, I have more confidence in God's grace than I do in man's ability to apply it.

bowler · « **Reply #47 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:15:58 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Nishant and all BODers say:

I believe that to be saved, one must have at a minimum, explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

I believe that one can also be saved who has no explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

Meanwhile they ignore all the clear dogms, creeds, Fathers, Doctors, and saints:

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Vatican I
The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation.

This is why I have always held that the opinion that the existence of God as rewarder cannot suffice for supernatural faith. Vatican I here finishes off holding to that opinion once and for all.

It confirms the unanimous opinion of the Fathers (considered infallible) as expounded in the ancient Athanasian Creed, it was the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and it was clearly infallible decreed at the Council of Florence:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence , Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

[/b] [/size]

Athanasian Creed

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

Nishant · « **Reply #48 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:17:05 PM »

Quote from: Bowler

Not even you believe that.

What is this supposed to mean? What is the point of explaining anything to you I fail to see. Maybe I should just spam quotes in the absurd way you do from now on.

Quote from: St. Alphonsus

Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

Quote from: St. Pius X

17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Quote from: Pius XII, recorded in AAS

An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism

Nishant · « **Reply #49 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:20:10 PM »

Quote from: Mama Chacha

It is not a huge concern for me, I was just curious about what the actual issue of the famous debate really was. I trust in the mercy of God, even though I know that most people will choose to love and serve themselves over loving and serving God, and I don't for one second believe that God would deny anyone who really loved and wanted to serve Him. Call it stupidity or inherent knowledge or whatever anyone wants to call it, I have more confidence in God's grace than I do in man's ability to apply it.

Glad to hear it, Mama Chacha. I would obviously call it the latter. God bless you.

Jehanne · « **Reply #50 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:25:08 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Ladislaus
But they can implicitly have explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.

What about those folks who lived prior to the dogma of the Holy Trinity being defined but who lived after the coming of Christ?

That dogma of the Holy Trinity was taught from the very beginning by the Church, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Quote

To this I may compare the case of Theology except that it proceeds the reverse way. For in the case by which I have illustrated it the change is made by successive subtractions; whereas here perfection is reached by additions. For the matter stands thus. The Old Testament proclaimed the Father openly, and the Son more obscurely. The New manifested the Son, and suggested the Deity of the Spirit. Now the Spirit Himself dwells among us, and supplies us with a clearer demonstration of Himself. For it was not safe, when the Godhead of the Father was not yet acknowledged, plainly to proclaim the Son; nor when that of the Son was not yet received to burden us further (if I may use so bold an expression) with the Holy Ghost; lest perhaps people might, like men loaded with food beyond their strength, and presenting eyes as yet too weak to bear it to the sun's light, risk the loss even of that which was within the reach of their powers; but that by gradual additions, and, as David says, Goings up, and advances and progress from glory to glory, the Light of the Trinity might shine upon the more illuminated. For this reason it was, I think, that He gradually came to dwell in the Disciples, measuring Himself out to them according to their capacity to receive Him, at the beginning of the Gospel, after the Passion, after the Ascension, making perfect their powers, being breathed upon them, and appearing in fiery tongues. And indeed it is by little and little that He is declared by Jesus, as you will learn for yourself if you will read more carefully. I will ask the Father, He says, and He will send you another Comforter, even the spirit of Truth. This He said that He might not seem to be a rival God, or to make His discourses to them by another authority. Again, He shall send Him, but it is in My Name. He leaves out the I will ask, but He keeps the Shall send, then again, I will send,--His own dignity. Then shall come, the authority of the Spirit. (St. Gregory of nαzιanzus, Oratio theologicae 5, 26)

Jehanne · « **Reply #51 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:28:35 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Only Baptism (in water) remits Original Sin. Then St. Thomas's statement is erroneous. It would not be the first time the Angelic Doctor was in error. This teaching of St Thomas does not represent de fide Catholic teaching, only his personal opinion.

Well, at least your honest about it; problem is, of course, that this "opinion" of the Angelic Doctor was promulgated in all the major catechisms and theological manuals from his time until ours, and as others have noted, even Pope Pius XII agreed, explicitly, with Saint Thomas on this very question.

bowler · « **Reply #52 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:34:47 PM »

Not even you believe what you write. What you wrote below is total subterfuge. Either you are schizophrenic or someone else is writing under your name. These are really flagrant lies!

Quote from: Nishant

Quote from: Bowler
Not even you believe that.

What is this supposed to mean? What is the point of explaining anything to you I fail to see. Maybe I should just spam quotes in the absurd way you do from now on.

Quote from: St. Alphonsus
Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament." (The Athanasian Creed, the Fathers, doctors and saints, the Council of Florence, and St. Thamas Aquinas and St. Alphonus Ligouri all taught that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must at a minimum believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Your posting this out of context quote is just pure subterfuge)

Quote from: St. Pius X
(this is a total lie, St. Pius X did not say that. Besides this quote nowhere teaches salcvation by implicit faith. Once again you are throwing out a smokescreen of baptism of desire and BOB of the catechumen)17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Quote from: Pius XII, recorded in AAS, An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism [color=red
(post the quote, you deny the clear infallible dogma of Florence and the ancient Athanasian Creed, with an obscure FALLIBLE quote which you expect someone to follow, when you deny ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints.)[/color]

Nishant · « **Reply #53 on:** April 14, 2014, 03:43:59 PM »

I should have taken a leaf out of your book long ago, and never bothered with explanations, at least to those like you who are either unwilling or incapable of understanding it.

Quote from: ST, Ia IIae, q.89, a.6)

It is impossible for venial sin to be in anyone with original sin alone, and without mortal sin. The reason for this is because before a man comes to the age of discretion, the lack of years hinders the use of reason and excuses him from mortal sin, wherefore, much more does it excuse him from venial sin, if he does anything which is such generically. But when he begins to have the use of reason, he is not entirely excused from the guilt of venial or mortal sin. Now the first thing that occurs to a man to think about then, is to deliberate about himself. And if he then direct himself to the due end, he will, by means of grace, receive the remission of original sin: whereas if he does not then direct himself to the due end, and as far as he is capable of discretion at that particular age, he will sin mortally, for through not doing that which is in his power to do. Accordingly thenceforward there cannot be venial sin in him without mortal, until afterwards all sin shall have been remitted to him through grace.

Quote from: St. Alphonsus, Commentary on the Council of Trent

Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."

Quote from: St. Pius X

17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Quote from: Pius XII, Acta Apostolicae Sedis, XLIII, 84

An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism

bowler · « **Reply #54 on:** April 14, 2014, 06:08:43 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Not even you believe what you write. What you wrote below is total subterfuge. Either you are schizophrenic or someone else is writing under your name. These are really flagrant lies!
Quote from: Nishant
Quote from: Bowler
Not even you believe that.

What is this supposed to mean? What is the point of explaining anything to you I fail to see. Maybe I should just spam quotes in the absurd way you do from now on.

Quote from: St. Alphonsus
Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament." (The Athanasian Creed, the Fathers, doctors and saints, the Council of Florence, and St. Thamas Aquinas and St. Alphonus Ligouri all taught that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must at a minimum believe in the Incarnation and the Trinity. Your posting this out of context quote is just pure subterfuge)

Quote from: St. Pius X
(this is a total lie, St. Pius X did not say that. Besides this quote nowhere teaches salcvation by implicit faith. Once again you are throwing out a smokescreen of baptism of desire and BOB of the catechumen)17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.

Quote from: Pius XII, recorded in AAS, An act of love can suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace and supply for the absence of Baptism [color=red
(post the quote, you deny the clear infallible dogma of Florence and the ancient Athanasian Creed, with an obscure FALLIBLE quote which you expect someone to follow, when you deny ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints.)[/color]

Jehanne · « **Reply #55 on:** April 14, 2014, 08:27:42 PM »

Bowler,

You can't (or won't) answer who Saint Thomas was writing about (answer: an unbaptized child who had just reached the Age of Reason), and yet you continue to quote him as an authority who, supposedly, supports your POV. So, it is clear that while you can read you simply cannot comprehend what you are reading or that you are not willing to admit that you are appealing to an authority who does not support your position.

bowler · « **Reply #56 on:** April 14, 2014, 11:04:06 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Bowler,

You can't (or won't) answer who Saint Thomas was writing about (answer: an unbaptized child who had just reached the Age of Reason), and yet you continue to quote him as an authority who, supposedly, supports your POV. So, it is clear that while you can read you simply cannot comprehend what you are reading or that you are not willing to admit that you are appealing to an authority who does not support your position.

No, you just believe what you want to believe. Like I keep telling you & Nishant, you are denying the clearest dogma on EENS from The Council of Florence, the unanimous opinion of the Fathers (considered infallible) as expounded in the ancient Athanasian Creed, the clear teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the dogmatic decree of Vatican I, to name a few, and you can quote no Father, Doctor or Saint or council that teaches what you and Nishant are defending here :

Quote from: Bowler

Nishant and ALL false BODers defend this directly contrary teaching. You "say" you believe the truth (1st proposition), while simultaneously you teach and defend the opposite of that truth (2nd proposition):

I believe that to be saved, one must have at a minimum, explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

I believe that one can also be saved who has no explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

That's what your teaching is in the raw, unmasked and naked, that is what you are teaching, a contradiction:

DOGMA -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence ,

Quote

Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

Athanasian Creed

[

Quote

b]1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved. [/b]

St. Thomas Aquinas:

Quote

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

Dogma Vatican I:

Quote

"The Catholic Church has always held that there is a twofold order of knowledge, and that these two orders are distinguished from one another not only in their principle but in their object; in one we know by natural reason, in the other by Divine faith; the object of the one is truth attainable by natural reason, the object of the other is mysteries hidden in God, but which we have to believe and which can only be known to us by Divine revelation".

Jehanne · « **Reply #57 on:** April 15, 2014, 06:19:27 AM »

Bowler,

As I have pointed out to you ad nauseam, the Council of Florence also said this:

Quote

By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

"Game over!" Bowler. You can't quote the Council of Florence against itself!

bowler · « **Reply #58 on:** April 15, 2014, 07:08:01 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Bowler,

As I have pointed out to you ad nauseam, the Council of Florence also said this:

Quote
By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters. On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

"Game over!" Bowler. You can't quote the Council of Florence against itself!

That's it exactly "game over". To you this is a game. The same with all the false BODers, you find one line and you deny ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Athanasian Creed, and councils. You are always seeking anything that you can twist to your own desires, in this case a line from Florence that can be used to negate ALL of Florence, and all that just to teach a naked contradiction:

Quote

Nishant and ALL false BODers defend this directly contrary teaching. You "say" you believe the truth (1st proposition), while simultaneously you teach and defend the opposite of that truth (2nd proposition):

I believe that to be saved, one must have at a minimum, explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

I believe that one can also be saved who has no explicit belief in the Christ and the Trinity.

Jehanne · « **Reply #59 on:** April 15, 2014, 08:30:34 AM »

Quote from: bowler

You are always seeking anything that you can twist to your own desires, in this case a line from Florence that can be used to negate ALL of Florence, and all that just to teach a naked contradiction:

It's not one line, Bowler, but two:

Quote

1) By these measures the synod intends to detract in nothing from the sayings and writings of the holy doctors who discourse on these matters.

2) On the contrary, it accepts and embraces them according to their true understanding as commonly expounded and declared by these doctors and other catholic teachers in the theological schools.

How many times does a Council need to repeat itself?