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Offline trad123

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Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
« on: December 25, 2018, 01:04:10 AM »
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  • Pius IX, On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm


    Quote
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    19.

    (. . .)

    Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.


    Leo XIII, On Mission Societies, 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm


    Quote
    6.

    (. . .)

    Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?


    Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, 1832

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm


    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”[18] Let them hear Jerome who, while the Church was torn into three parts by schism, tells us that whenever someone tried to persuade him to join his group he always exclaimed: “He who is for the See of Peter is for me.”[19] A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration. Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: “The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?”




    The life of Pope Pius IX and the great events in the history of the Church during his pontificate

    By John Gilmary Shea, published 1877

    pgs. 97 - 103

    https://archive.org/details/TheLifeOfPopePiusIX1877


    Quote
    In an allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847, Pius IX. congratulated the sacred college on the renewal of a cordial understanding with Spain, by means of which he had been enabled to appoint a number of bishops in that country once so devoted  to the Church. He alluded too to the favorable appearance of the Catholic cause in Russia, and repudiated certain theories ascribed to him. Against religious indifferentism so zealously advocated in our days, and made as it were a state creed, he said : "It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.

    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system. From the measures, in no' wise incompatible with the sanctity of the  Catholic religion, which, in certain affairs relating to the civil government of the Pontifical States, we thought fit in kindness to adopt, as tending to the public advantage and prosperity, and from the amnesty graciously bestowed upon some of the subjects of the same States at the beginning of our pontificate, it appears that these men have desired to infer that we think so benevolently concerning every, class of mankind, as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life."

    We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us. We do indeed love all mankind with the inmost affection of our heart, yet not otherwise than in the love of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who came to  seek and to save that which had perished, who died for all, who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth ; who therefore sent his disciples into the whole world to preach the gospel to every creature, proclaiming that they who should believe and be baptized should be saved, but they who should believe not should be condemned ; who therefore will be saved let them come to the pillar and ground of faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true Church of Christ, which in its bishops and in the Roman Pontiff, the chief head of all, has the succession of apostolical authority, never at any time interrupted; which has never counted aught of greater moment than to preach and by all means to keep and defend the doctrine proclaim ed by the apostles, by Christ's command; which, from the apostles' time downward, has increased in the midst of difficulties of every kind ; and being illustrious through out the whole world by the splendor of miracles, multiplied by the blood of martyrs, exalted by the virtues of confessors and virgins, strengthened by the most wise testimonies of the fathers, hath flourished and doth flourish in all the regions of the earth, and shines refulgent in the perfect unity of the faith, of sacraments, and of holy discipline."


    Let me paraphrase the above excerpt:


    Pius IX


    Quote
    Allocution to the cardinals on the Consistory of the 17th of December, 1847, Pius IX:

    It is assuredly not unknown to you, venerable brethren, that in our times many of the enemies of the Catholic faith especially direct their efforts toward placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or of confounding it therewith, and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indifference of religions.

    But quite recently, we shudder to say it, men have appeared who have thrown such reproaches upon our name and apostolic dignity, that they do not hesitate to slander us, as if we shared in their folly and favored the aforesaid most wicked system.

    (. . .) as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at everlasting life."

    We are at a loss from horror to find words to express our detestation of this new and atrocious injustice that is done us.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #1 on: December 25, 2018, 01:04:33 AM »
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  • http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/08Aug/aug4str.htm


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Page 216:

    Quote
    Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Page 217:

    Quote
    "One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…"


    Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre: Pages 217-218:

    Quote
    "This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.' When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached."


    Bishop Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976):

    Quote
    "We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it..."


    Fr. Schmidberger (SSPX), Time Bombs of the Second Vatican Council, 2005, p. 10:

    Quote
    "Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear that the followers of other religions can be saved under certain conditions, that is to say, if they are in invincible error."


    Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of SSPX, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:

    Quote
    Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to Heaven."


    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic, Fenton Article, Fall 2003, p. 6:

    Quote
    "So, is it true and an article of faith that 'outside the Church there is no salvation'? Yes, it is. Does this mean that a person, no matter how praiseworthy a life he may have led, will be eternally lost who, through no grave fault of his own, is not an actual member of the Church at the moment of death? No, it does not."


    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic, Fenton Article, Fall 2003, p. 7:

    Quote
    "With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death. It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny."


    Bishop Donald Sanborn, Sacerdotium V, p. 24:

    Quote
    "Vatican II's idea of the Church is heretical, since it identifies organized religions of pagans and idolaters with the Mystical Body of Christ. The truth is that in no way are pagans and idolaters, as pagans and idolaters, united to the Mystical Body of Christ. If, by some mystery of Providence and Predestination, they [pagans and idolaters] are united to the soul of the Church, and by desire to its body, it is in spite of their paganism and idolatry. It is due to an invincible ignorance of their error."


    Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 18, quoting from Fr. Tanquery with approval:

    Quote
    "Necessity of means, however, is not an absolute necessity, but a hypothetical one. In certain particular circumstances, for example, in the case of the invincible ignorance or of incapability, actual membership in the Church can be supplied by the desire for this membership. It is not necessary that this be explicitly present; it can be included in a willingness and readiness to fulfill the will of God. In this way those who are outside the Catholic Church can achieve salvation." (Catholic Research Institute)


    Fr. Kevin Vaillancourt, I Baptize With Water, p. 17:

    Quote
    "Are there any more 'good faith' pagans in existence? Is it possible for the Communists of China or the faithful adherents of Buddhism and Mohammedism of the Near and Far East to either have never heard the Gospel, or else had the Gospel presented to them in an erroneous light?... Can the Chinese Communist, or the Indian Buddhist or the Pakistani Muslim be included in such a consideration [of invincible ignorance]? Only God knows, and it is not up to me to decide for Him. I write here merely to uphold the dogmatic principle of the possibility of such cases today, without admitting that all, or even a significant number of those who are in such circumstances will achieve salvation through justification."
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #2 on: December 25, 2018, 08:27:49 AM »
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    6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  7This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.  8He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 
    9That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. 
    Scripture says there’s no such thing as “invincible ignorance”.  Case closed. 

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 12:42:46 PM »
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  • Scripture says there’s no such thing as “invincible ignorance”.  Case closed.

    Acts 8, 26:40
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Quid Retribuam Domino

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 06:17:49 PM »
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  • Acts 8, 26:40

    Yes.

    Jesus sanctified the waters through His baptism by St. John the Forerunner for a reason....to give us true baptism that can only be effected by water and Spirit. If water baptism isn't the only true baptism, His sanctifying the waters is pointless.
    From the woman came the beginning of sin, and by her we all die. ~ Ecclesiasticus 25:33

    International Women's Day is a day we all celebrate Eve's rebellion at the Tree and our plummet into sin.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 10:57:33 AM »
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  • The issue I have trouble with regarding no salvation via invincible ignorance, is it means that there are entire continents where every single person for a thousand years was damned. Opponents of invincible ignorance say that in the case of a virtuous pagan following natural law, God would send a missionary over to them. So why is it that Europeans are so special and always had the faith, but there were entire continents of people where not a single soul was virtuous enough for salvation?  

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 12:14:24 PM »
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  • The issue I have trouble with regarding no salvation via invincible ignorance, is it means that there are entire continents where every single person for a thousand years was damned. Opponents of invincible ignorance say that in the case of a virtuous pagan following natural law, God would send a missionary over to them. So why is it that Europeans are so special and always had the faith, but there were entire continents of people where not a single soul was virtuous enough for salvation?  
    Salvation via Invincible Ignorance is an old fashion excuse, it is no longer used by BODers as a way to save those outside of the Church. It should be obvious why it is no longer used:

    Question - I'm  Jew, are you telling me that I am going to Hell?

    Answer  - No, you are not going to Hell, you will be saved and go to Heaven because you are invincible ignorant.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The new and improved way to save every non-Catholic, people in all "religions", Mohamedans, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Satanists..... is salvation by belief in a God that rewards.

    Whoever started this thread is behind the times.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 12:21:20 PM »
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  • The issue I have trouble with regarding no salvation via invincible ignorance, is it means that there are entire continents where every single person for a thousand years was damned. Opponents of invincible ignorance say that in the case of a virtuous pagan following natural law, God would send a missionary over to them. So why is it that Europeans are so special and always had the faith, but there were entire continents of people where not a single soul was virtuous enough for salvation?  
    God put them out of reach of the gospel because they would reject it and be more guilty and suffer the worse punishments in Hell. The gospel is available today to 100x more people and they are all damned anyways but with worse punishments. 

    Hell has different degrees of punishments, the best place in hell may be like Panama with only a loin cloth and without air conditioning or mosquito screening, repellent, insecticide. Maybe like living in a Siberia Gulag during the winter.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #8 on: February 03, 2019, 12:23:34 PM »
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  • The issue I have trouble with regarding no salvation via invincible ignorance, is it means that there are entire continents where every single person for a thousand years was damned. Opponents of invincible ignorance say that in the case of a virtuous pagan following natural law, God would send a missionary over to them. So why is it that Europeans are so special and always had the faith, but there were entire continents of people where not a single soul was virtuous enough for salvation?  
    Numbers 14:18 The Lord is patient and full of mercy, taking away iniquity and wickedness, and leaving no man clear, who visitest the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    The Apostles accomplished the command of Our Lord per Mark 16:15, they preached Christ's Gospel to every creature - on every continent.

    Those people who rejected the preaching of the Apostles, rejected it not only for themselves, but also their children unto the 3rd and 4th generation, and so on till today and for the future, unto the 3rd and 4th generation.


    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #9 on: February 03, 2019, 02:53:47 PM »
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  • Numbers 14:18 The Lord is patient and full of mercy, taking away iniquity and wickedness, and leaving no man clear, who visitest the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    The Apostles accomplished the command of Our Lord per Mark 16:15, they preached Christ's Gospel to every creature - on every continent.

    Those people who rejected the preaching of the Apostles, rejected it not only for themselves, but also their children unto the 3rd and 4th generation, and so on till today and for the future, unto the 3rd and 4th generation.
    There's no evidence the Apostles ever reached America or Lapland, for example, so there's still a long time between the New Covenant and the arrival of Christian missionaries to those places. Even if we're to accept that they miraculously preached to those peoples and left no trace, why would everyone thereafter be punished for their fathers' sins? 
    I'm not some BODer at all, I give (I believe the term is) faithful assent to the fact that not even the so-called "invincibly ignorant" can be saved. But it's still an issue I have trouble with understanding. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #10 on: February 03, 2019, 03:24:05 PM »
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  • There's no evidence the Apostles ever reached America or Lapland, for example, so there's still a long time between the New Covenant and the arrival of Christian missionaries to those places. Even if we're to accept that they miraculously preached to those peoples and left no trace, why would everyone thereafter be punished for their fathers' sins?
    I'm not some BODer at all, I give (I believe the term is) faithful assent to the fact that not even the so-called "invincibly ignorant" can be saved. But it's still an issue I have trouble with understanding.
    The term, "invincibly ignorant" used to mean something along the lines of "incapable of thinking", as in one who was born that way, or with a brain abnormality or deformity, or who was at some point in their life brain injured. For the last few centuries or so however, I.I. has taken on an entirely new meaning that includes "all those who want nothing to do with the Catholic Church".

    The lie about I.I., in a nutshell, is that God rewards heaven to all those who do not seek Him, presumably because "through no fault of their own" they never knew Him to even exist. After all, an essential part of I.I. is to mean that God is incapable of making Himself known to a certain of His creation, or incapable of prompting His own created beings (whom He created for heaven) to find out about Him.  

    "Through no fault of their own" are the key words which apply to all I.I. people, including lawyers, doctors and even teachers are among the ranks of the invincibly ignorant - but go ahead and tell them they are invincibly ignorant and, they will take that as a great insult!  

    We know that the Apostles fulfilled the command of Our Lord so that at one point, every one had the Gospel preached to them. We know this because that is what God told them to do - so that is exactly what they did. God did not miraculously transport the 12 Apostles all over the world *on foot* so that some might not get the message - and on that account be able to squirm out of it by claiming invincible ignorance! No, God said it, we believe it.

    God also knew that some would reject His Gospel - "shake the dust..." remember?

    So we also know that, like during the 2000 years since then, many/most rejected that same preaching for many of the same reasons it is rejected today. I'll stick with the old definition of "invincibly ignorant", at least that way, we can truthfully say that there certainly are invincibly ignorant people in the world.  
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius IX and Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #11 on: February 03, 2019, 04:49:27 PM »
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  • Forlorn, remember that salvation is a spiritual mystery which humans can never fully comprehend.  Scripture infallibly tells us that God wills all men to be saved, therefore it’s not ours to know the “hows” and “whys” of God’s treatment of souls.  This would be to try to understand God’s wisdom, which is impossible.  Just know that God is as merciful to all humans as He is to you and I...surely this will give you peace and trust that God gives all men the graces to love Him.  It is our responsibility to correspond to grace.  Many do not. 

     

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