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Author Topic: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL  (Read 775 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
« on: February 09, 2020, 12:07:20 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus admits that "all the Scriptures and Church Fathers" teach that explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity are NECESSARY for salvation.  It is, therefore, dogma.

    He then demonstrates that the Rewarder God theorists escape condemnation for heresy by distinguishing NECESSARY, claiming that these are NECESSARY BY NECESSITY OF PRECEPT (which is opposed to necessary by necessity of means).

    Alas, St. Alphonsus was unaware that in 1703 the Holy Office rejected this distinction and declared explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity to be necessary BY NECESSITY OF MEANS.

    With that distinction being rejected, the opinion becomes HERETICAL, opposing as it does all the Scriptures and Church Fathers.

    So, the MAJOR is that all the Scriptures and Church Fathers teach the necessity of explicit knowledge of Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, rendering it de fide.

    But the Jesuit theorists come around and say, "ah, but we distinguish necessity" and claim that it's necessary only by necessity of precept.

    But the Holy Office SHOOTS DOWN that distinction.  Without said distinction, the teaching is HERETICAL, opposing as it does all the Scriptures and Church Fathers.

    Until such a time as the Church were to reverse that decision of the Holy Office, we are bound to reject the distinction of "necessity of precept" and therefore regard Rewarder God theory as heretical.

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #1 on: February 09, 2020, 12:10:40 PM »
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  • What are some good sources for learning about St. Alphonsus' stance on explicit faith? In what work does he say that explicit faith is necessary? 

    I'd like to see if my university's library has it, hence my curiosity. 


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #2 on: February 09, 2020, 01:46:26 PM »
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  • Lad,

    I believe you're referring to the attached, correct?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #3 on: February 09, 2020, 02:51:08 PM »
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  • Lad,

    I believe you're referring to the attached, correct?

    Yes, thank you.  I quoted it elsewhere and just assumed that the context would carry over from the other thread.  OK, I was a bit lazy.

    This clearly says that a "promise" to learn these truths does not suffice (as it would were it necessity of precept), but that it is required to learn these truths which are necessary by necessity of MEANS.

    Another interesting point.  If it were even POSSIBLE (though doubtful) that these would suffice, the Church typically allows DOUBTFUL scenarios to play out IN DANGER OF DEATH (and that is the context here).  This is stating unequivocally that there's no chance this would work, i.e, no chance that this opinion is true, i.e. it's  NOT probable.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #4 on: February 09, 2020, 03:17:09 PM »
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  • It seems to me that this argument depends on Sedevacantism, and with it, the view of the papacy that Sedevacantists assert (1: A real pope is really close to infallible even when not trying to act infallibly, 2: the Conciliar popes are not popes at all, and have *zero* authority.)

    Am I missing anything here?


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #5 on: February 09, 2020, 03:18:27 PM »
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  • Was the 1703 ruling ex cathedra?  It seems like you'd need either an ex cathedra ruling or an ecuмenical council to know for sure.  Anything less than that and you're just dealing with an issue of obedience, it seems.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Rewarder God Theory must be considered HERETICAL
    « Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 03:40:38 PM »
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  • What are some good sources for learning about St. Alphonsus' stance on explicit faith? In what work does he say that explicit faith is necessary?

    I'd like to see if my university's library has it, hence my curiosity.
    Below are some quotes from St. A. Ligouri (SAL), notice that he references St. Thomas Aquinas who came about 450 years before SAL was born. They were just teaching what was always believed and was dogmatically declared in the Athansian Creed in the 300's, 1400 years before SAL.

     

    Quote
    Athanasian Creed
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

     




    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the

     
    apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear
     
    who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of
     
    any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself
     
    that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they
     
    disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt,
     
    they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and
     
    inviolate (Athanasian Creed).” 
     




    Quote
    St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church.  How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.”Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)
     
     
     St. Alphonsus, The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457: “Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted.  But what is this remote grace?  St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius.  Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.”
     
     
     St. Thomas, Summa Theologica:  “After grace had been revealed, both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above.”[iv][259]
     
      
     Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica:  
    “And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity.[ii][v][260]

     
    150 years before St. A. Ligouri was born:
    St. Francis Xavier:
     Letter from Japan, to the Society of Jesus in Europe, 1552
     
     One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble---it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.
     
     From: Henry James Coleridge, ed., The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier, 2d Ed., 2 Vols., (London: Burns & Oates, 1890), Vol. II, pp. 331-350; reprinted in William H. McNeil and Mitsuko Iriye, eds., Modern Asia and Africa, Readings in World History Vol. 9, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1971), pp. 20-30.