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Author Topic: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video  (Read 10014 times)

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Offline sedevacantist3

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Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
« Reply #150 on: October 21, 2019, 06:31:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 21, 2019, 03:40:52 PM
    If you listened to the whole video it may have helped better explain why he came to his conclusions, but anyway, what it all amounts to is the man elected, good or bad, is the pope. If he is a heretic there is nothing anyone can do about it - the next pope or a future pope is the only one who can do anything about it - after the heretic is long gone. The pope makes the conclave rules, which is to say that per those rules, and whatever they may be, that is the only way a pope will ever be elected.

    The SSPX et al belief that the pope is the pope has no bearing on our religious obligations - if you would have heard the very beginning of the video, you would have heard the Highest Principle of the Church: "First we are under obedience to God, only then under obedience to man."
     
    One has nothing to do with the other, I am a sede yet I still agree with him we are under obedience to God.   I just refuse to believe  your pope Jewgorglio is my pope and pope of the Church of Christ.  
    question to Pax was never responded to whether if the crisis were to have occurred before 1917 if you would then hold the sede position.  What are your comments on the following 
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    John Salza, Second Article, p. 5: “Ability to Recognize a Formal Heretic: Catholics are able to recognize a formal heretic without a declaration from the Church. See canon 188.4 and cuм Ex Apostolatus.

    John Salza, Second Article, pp. 15-16: “While a Catholic may claim that some of the conduct of the conciliar popes raises questions about their fidelity to Church dogmas (e.g., “No Salvation Outside the Church”), these Popes have never declared that they deny the dogmas in question. If, for example, Pope John Paul II made known to the Church that he kissed the Koran because he denies the divinity of Christ, and he persisted in his error after being rebuked, the Church would know at that point that he is a formal heretic. A declaration of heresy for “the common good” of the Church in such case would be unnecessary (although it would most likely still be given), and canon 188.4 and cuм Ex would apply.”
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #151 on: October 22, 2019, 05:39:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: sedevacantist3 on October 21, 2019, 06:31:33 PM
    One has nothing to do with the other, I am a sede yet I still agree with him we are under obedience to God.   I just refuse to believe  your pope Jewgorglio is my pope and pope of the Church of Christ.  
    question to Pax was never responded to whether if the crisis were to have occurred before 1917 if you would then hold the sede position.  What are your comments on the following
    To answer your question, for me (and I suspect for most trads), I don't use the canon law definition of heretic, rather, I just go by what the pope says and does - if it’s contrary to the faith, its heresy. It doesn't matter who says it or when. Sedes say  popes cannot teach heresy, but if he does, he is not pope. To me, this very idea is such a blatant contradiction in and of itself that I used to disbelieve anyone would buy it - but I was wrong.  

    As for sedeism, for me it starts and ends with the dogma that it is necessary to be subject to the pope or no salvation for me. Because it is dogma, this is foundational for me, there is no possible way around this for me, nor is there any possible way for me to get out of this because  it is a requirement for salvation, it is dogma that I remain a subject of the pope. I firmly believe that God certainly knew of this crisis when He gave us that dogma which I am bound to accept, so for me, I am sure not going to go sede, not in 1130, or 1917 or ever. For me, I do not accept the idea that God made being the pope's subject a requirement for salvation, but then left us without a pope. That is not at all the way God works.

    If the dogma means what it says, then it means that we should have to continue to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, unless he should command something which is sinful. In doing this, I remain the pope's good subject but God's first, thus adhering to the highest principle in the Church while meeting the requirement for salvation.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #152 on: October 22, 2019, 06:22:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on October 21, 2019, 06:06:51 AM
    LT,
    Do you think the main assault on EENS came about within the last 150 years?
    My impression is that it gained critical mass around the time of Pope Leo XIII.
    Within 150 years would be 1869, but how do we define main assault? We are in the USA and all of the docuмentation we have is in English, so nobody here considers anything but English language docuмents. I am of Spanish ancestry, living in the USA. In Spanish speaking countries we knew nothing else but that Protestants all go to hell and you can forget about every other "religion". So, you are correct for the USA, but in Spain and South America it is only a recent thing.

    I believe the heart of the belief that people in any religion can be saved is that the ivory tower (universities and seminaries) theologians theoretical speculations were spread to the people as akin to dogma. I believe that the theologians like St. Alphonsus Ligouri and all of the theologians that Ott brings forth, did not know the finality of dogma and the Vatican II theologians today are riding that wave today.

    We believe that dogmas are the final word from The Holy Ghost. One example of dogma is the Athanasian Creed, it clearly says that we must believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation ( that Jesus Christ is God), yet two Jesuit theologians in the early 1600's said that belief in a God that rewards is sufficient for salvation, and the Athanasian Creed is throw out the window by everybody that follows (along with all the other dogmas on EENS). That is just one example of not know the finality of dogma.

    Now, the majority of false BODers, Cushingites, first of all just can't believe that a "good" person in some other religion will end up in hell, so they just seek teachers according to their own desires. It is not that they first learn that people in other religions can be saved, it is first that they can't believe that those people are lost. Fr. Cekada says exactly that.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #153 on: October 22, 2019, 06:40:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 22, 2019, 06:22:33 AM
    Now, the majority of false BODers, Cushingites, first of all just can't believe that a "good" person in some other religion will end up in hell, so from there they just seek teachers according to their own desires. It is not that they first learn that people in other religions can be saved, it is first that they can't believe that those people are lost. Fr. Cekada says exactly that.
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #154 on: October 22, 2019, 07:03:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: John on October 19, 2019, 10:44:44 AM
    Notice I did not ask your opinion but only WHERE can I find the Church's own definition of implicit...
    John,


    You never answered my question: name a single well-known Sedevacantist or even non-Sede priest who teaches that explicit faith in the Trinity and Our Lord's Incarnation is necessary for salvation?


    I can think of NOT A SINGLE ONE.


    And consider that Msgr. Fenton said in the late 1940s that it was the common or majority opinion that such faith in Christ was necessary for salvation.


    Where is that opinion proclaimed by the priests and bishops of Christ's Church today?


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    Luke18:8

    I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

    Dico vobis quia cito faciet vindictam illorum. Verumtamen Filius hominis veniens, putas, inveniet fidem in terra?

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #155 on: October 22, 2019, 07:37:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 22, 2019, 06:40:54 AM
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    Then there's this from a lively Fr. Wathen sermon on the dogma EENS:

    "....and then to make the point even clearer, He says: 'Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom', in other words, no matter how many say Lord, Lord, no matter how many recognize that Christ is the Lord, that He is the Savior, no matter how many say that Christ is the Lord and Savior who refuse to accept all that He taught, all that He imposed, all that the Apostles taught and imposed, all that their legitimate successors teach and impose -  will not enter into the kingdom.

    If this seems to you overly severe, I remind you, it truly *is* severe..."     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #156 on: October 22, 2019, 09:48:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 22, 2019, 05:39:42 AM
    As for sedeism, for me it starts and ends with the dogma that it is necessary to be subject to the pope or no salvation for me. Because it is dogma, this is foundational for me, there is no possible way around this for me, nor is there any possible way for me to get out of this because  it is a requirement for salvation, it is dogma that I remain a subject of the pope.

    #1 ... you're begging the question that this man is in fact the pope.

    #2 ... you are in no way "subject" to him, as mere lip service does not count.  You reject pretty much everything he teaches, commands, and stands for.  Putting his picture up in a chapel vestibule does not count as subjection.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #157 on: October 22, 2019, 10:11:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 22, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
    #1 ... you're begging the question that this man is in fact the pope.

    #2 ... you are in no way "subject" to him, as mere lip service does not count.  You reject pretty much everything he teaches, commands, and stands for.  Putting his picture up in a chapel vestibule does not count as subjection.
    #1 ... no, I am not the one begging the question.

    #2 ... yes, I am subject to him. I do not submit to his heretical teachings - which is pretty much everything he teaches. You call this "lip service". Name anything he teaches which I should submit too without transgressing the highest principle in the Church.



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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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