Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video  (Read 10044 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46090
  • Reputation: +27152/-5013
  • Gender: Male
Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2019, 10:39:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now, the big argument from the Cushingites like Heretic John here is that the opinion came to be universally held by theologians by the 1800s.

    Yet, if I'm living in the year 1500, and the Church has always taught since the beginning that explicit knowledge of and belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity are necessary for salvation, would that not be required Church teaching?  So how were these Jesuits permitted to overturn that teaching?  Since no Catholic anywhere ever believed otherwise, it meets the criteria for being an infallible teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  If that isn't, then there's absolutely no such thing as an infallible teaching of the OUM.  So how did a mandatory infallible teaching become an optional non-infallible teaching that was suddenly probable?  But if it's possible for Jesuits to come along and dump this teaching that was universally held, then what's wrong with us dumping this subsequent teaching that became universally held?  You can't have it both ways, Cushingites.  Somehow those Jesuits were not bound by prior universal teaching, and yet we are?

    Interestingly, for about 700-800 years, theologians universally followed the erroneous opinion of St. Augustine that infants who die without Baptism suffer the pain of sense.  Abelard came along and questioned this.  Eventually the Church sided with him and adopted his opinion as Church teaching.  By the way, this same Abelard also rejected Baptism of Desire.

    I don't necessarily waste my breath in tracing the history of this speculative opinion (that's all this is and it's not definable as Church doctrine) ... because John is of bad will, but it most certainly is not revealed truth, nor does it necessarily proceed implicitly from other revealed truth.

    Offline John

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 144
    • Reputation: +152/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #121 on: October 19, 2019, 10:44:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Notice I did not ask your opinion but only WHERE can I find the Church's own definition of implicit... 
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #122 on: October 19, 2019, 11:15:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'll start.  Despite Cushingite lies, we have exactly ONE Church Father, purportedly a second, who opined in favor of Baptism of Desire.  Meanwhile, we have about half a dozen who explicitly REJECTED this notion.  In fact, even in the case of that one Church Father, St. Augustine, he merely floated the notion as a speculative opinion in his early days of being a Catholic, but by the end of his life had completely rejected it (after having battled the Pelagians and Donatists), and some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence come from the pen of St. Augustine.  Meanwhile, the meaning of St. Ambrose's funeral oration for Valentinian is ambiguous at best, and elsewhere he too reject the possibility of even sincere catechumens being saved if they die before Baptism.

    Now, even when St. Augustine floated the opinion, he made it clear that it wasn't some Traditional teaching received from the Apostles.  He states that he had gone back and forth on the question and that in the end, it "seemed" to him that it was possible.  This was no revealed teaching by any means.

    Subsequent to St. Augustine, we have a couple of explicit rejections of BoD, and then complete silence on the matter until the Augustinian revival of the early scholastic era (1100s).  It was being hotly debated between two of the pre-scholastics, Hugh of St. Victor (pro) and Abelard (con).  Peter Lombard wrote to St. Bernard to ask for his opinion, to help resolve the debate.  St. Bernard replied very weakly, "well, I'd rather be wrong with Augustine than right on my own."  No other theological reasons were given.  Peter Lombard went with this.  He in turn influenced the scholastics with his Sentences.  St. Thomas Aquinas adopted the opinion, and of course after him it went viral.  Now, little did St. Bernard and St. Thomas know ... but St. Augustine had violently rejected BoD in his later works, but those were not available to them at the time.  Had they known, they would undoubtedly not have gone this route.  By the way, in the early pre-scholastic period, there was a revival of St. Augustine, and such devotion to him that the Church felt the need to condemn the proposition that it was acceptable to prefer an opinion of Augustine over a Church teaching.

    Now, from the Church Fathers all the way through St. Robert Bellarmine, this consideration of BoD was made only in the context of a catechumen.  St. Robert Bellarmine's scholastic question, for instance, was, "whether a catechumen who died before Baptism can be saved".  St. Robert clearly limited this to the context of the catechumen and only tentatively landed in favor of BoD.  And why?  It's because, he said, the contrary opinion "would seem too harsh".  In other words, for non-theological / emotional reasons.  Of course, this caused problems for him, since in his ecclesiology he explicitly stated that catechumens were outside the Church since they had not received the Sacraments.

    Here are the origins of this opinion.  People saw that every once in a while, a very pious and devout catechumen would die before Baptism.  At the same time, some "scoundrel", as St. Augustine put it, snatched salvation on his deathbed after living a sinful life.  So there was emotionally-driven speculation as a result ... not theology.  But St. Augustine eventually laid aside the emotion and followed theology, basically saying that to question God's justice and mercy leads to a "vortex of confusion" and we cannot say that God is powerless to bring the Sacrament to His elect.  Other Fathers rejected BoD on the same grounds, realizing that the opinion was rooted in a presumption of people attempting to determine what would and what would not be "fair" for God to do.  Indeed, they realized, this opens up a HUGE can of worms.  There are lots of things that happen which to human minds APPEAR to be "unfair".  How many people lose their faith after a tragedy, questioning how a merciful God could allow such a thing?  That thinking is precisely what's behind BoD speculation ... and they knew it ... and they rejected it.

    Fast forward to the post-Renaissance period.  Subjectivism comes onto the scene, bringing with it a neo-Pelagianism.  Of course in that theological climate they would find BoD appealing.  So the opinion became more and more widespread.  This theological rot is the VERY SAME as what's behind all of Vatican II.  So we have Johnny here denouncing Vatican II as heresy while promoting implicit BoD.  Little does the dunderhead realize, that implicit inclusion in the Church is behind all the Vatican II errors, the new ecclesiology.  Religious Liberty is merely taking the subjectivism to its logical conclusions.

    Not to mention Johnny's contradiction that we must accept BoD because it was held by the vast majority of theologians right before Vatican II, but we must reject the opinion of those same theologians that there's nothing wrong with Vatican II.  These same theologians all embraced Vatican II and promoted it as Catholic teaching.  But it's OK to reject that, but not OK to reject the opinions they held just before Vatican II.  And the absurdity of this is mind-boggling.  But that's what happens when someone is of bad will.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #123 on: October 19, 2019, 11:21:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Notice I did not ask your opinion but only WHERE can I find the Church's own definition of implicit...

    I could hardly care less about what you asked.  I was responding to a post by ByzCat.  He is sincerely seeking the truth; you are not.  I have no interest in discussing this subject with the likes of yourself.  PS, this character John either is or else is close buddies with the former poster "Lover of Truth".

    There is no Church definition of implicit, just like there is no definition of BoD.  Different theologians use it in different ways.  Just like different theologians understand and describe BoD in varying ways.  It's interesting that you Cushingites claim that we must "believe" in BoD ... except that no one can point us to any Church teaching regarding WHAT we must believe about it.

    Cushingite:  You MUST believe in BoD.
    Catholic:  What is this BoD?  What does the Church teach about it?
    Cushingite:  Just that Baptism isn't required for salvation.

    You see, for each Cushingite you have a different understanding of what BoD is and how it works, and under what conditions it works.  And the only common denominator?  That the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for salvation ... which is of course heretical.

    When the Church defines something that must be believed by the faithful, the Church is very clear to lay out in detail WHAT it is that must be believed about it.  There is absolutely no such definition anywhere.  Without such definition, professing belief in BoD is nothing but lip service.

    Offline John

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 144
    • Reputation: +152/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #124 on: October 19, 2019, 12:00:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Haha. Loudmouthlost either is the doofus in the video, or he is close friends with him...  I bank on the fact that he IS him.. hahaha

    Nevermind the fact that the council of Trent TEACHES EXPLICIT BAPTISM OF DESIRE, also, the catechism of the council of Trent,  the Douai Catechism... the 1917 code of canon law... Pope Pius X,  Pope Pius IX...XII... Pope Innocent II, III... 

    You should start with Trent's definition of Justification and desire...



    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline John

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 144
    • Reputation: +152/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #125 on: October 19, 2019, 12:02:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Here is something you should spend a year trying to refute..
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1923
    • Reputation: +511/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #126 on: October 19, 2019, 12:10:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are also different levels of "implicit".

    Explicit:  I want to become a Catholic and want to be baptized.
    Implicit 1:  I want to become a Catholic (implicit want to be baptized).
    Implicit 2:  I want to do God's will (implicit want to become a Catholic, since it's what God wills, and implicit want to be baptized, since it's what God wills).
    Implicit 3:  I'm a nice guy doing the best I can (implicit want to do God's will ... the rest as in Implicit 2).

    Most people believe in Implicit 3 today.

    As seen by how it could lead to #3, this notion of "implicit" is one of the most dangerous in all of Catholic theology, being exploited to no end by enemies of the faith to undermine Catholic dogma.

    Implicit 2 lines up with Rewarder God theory and didn't exist before that was invented by a couple of Jesuits around 1600.

    Implicit 1 (and Explicit of course) requires explicit faith in the core Catholic dogmas.

    Implicit 3 opens things up even to atheists, or even to, hypothetically, those who believe that God rewards the wicked and punishes the just ... like the Aztecs and worshippers of Baal or even Satanists.
    I think most trads stop at 2.  Most “feeneyites” wouldn’t object much if we stopped at 1, though they’d object very strongly to 2.  Most novus ordo seem to go for 3, but 3 is probably pelagianism.
    Would you say that’s a basically correct analysis on the situation itself, leaving aside for the moment who is right? 

    Offline John

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 144
    • Reputation: +152/-26
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #127 on: October 19, 2019, 02:14:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Traditional Catholics for 500 years have been taught, via Catechisms endorsed by the Church, that explicit Desire for baptism suffices for water baptism in adults, justifying them with sanctifying grace, meaning that if they died in that state they will have saved their souls...

    Deny that..
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #128 on: October 19, 2019, 02:20:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Traditional Catholics for 500 years have been taught, via Catechisms endorsed by the Church, that explicit Desire for baptism suffices for water baptism in adults, justifying them with sanctifying grace, meaning that if they died in that state they will have saved their souls...

    Deny that..

    I absolutely deny that, as the Roman Catechism (more like 450 years ago) did not teach Baptism of Desire as the Cushingites claim.  We've already discussed this.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #129 on: October 19, 2019, 02:21:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Nevermind the fact that the council of Trent TEACHES EXPLICIT BAPTISM OF DESIRE, also, the catechism of the council of Trent, ...

    Uhm, no, they most certainly do not teach what you claim.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #130 on: October 19, 2019, 02:30:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think most trads stop at 2.  Most “feeneyites” wouldn’t object much if we stopped at 1, though they’d object very strongly to 2.  Most novus ordo seem to go for 3, but 3 is probably pelagianism.
    Would you say that’s a basically correct analysis on the situation itself, leaving aside for the moment who is right?

    I completely agree with your assessment.  When I said that most believe in #3, I'm including the Novus Ordites, who nearly universally believe in #3.

    Most Trads do in fact stop at 2.

    Most, if not all true "Feeneyites", would indeed not object to #1, but would object to #2.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46090
    • Reputation: +27152/-5013
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #131 on: October 19, 2019, 02:32:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Traditional Catholics for 500 years have been taught, via Catechisms endorsed by the Church, that explicit Desire for baptism suffices for water baptism in adults, justifying them with sanctifying grace, meaning that if they died in that state they will have saved their souls...

    Deny that..

    Meanwhile, you are completely dodging my question.  If the entire Church taught and believed the requirement of explicit faith in Our Lord and the Holy Trinity for nearly 1600 years, what gave those Jesuit innovators the right to concoct their Rewarder God theory?

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1923
    • Reputation: +511/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #132 on: October 19, 2019, 02:56:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I completely agree with your assessment.  When I said that most believe in #3, I'm including the Novus Ordites, who nearly universally believe in #3.

    Most Trads do in fact stop at 2.

    Most, if not all true "Feeneyites", would indeed not object to #1, but would object to #2.
    I think most of my friends who converted through the novus ordo from Protestantism also stop at 2.  Which probably comes with the fact that they actually learned the faith, albeit perhaps watered down by Vatican ii and such.  But then, these are hermeneutics of continuity types, not “everything changes and that’s good” type.
    I suppose one big difference in practice is id prefer level 1, or even level 0, over level 3... level 3 seems by far the most severe error to me.
    I do also question how many people TRULY fulfill 2, and if there are any, whether God might explicitly give them the faith before they die.  I’m not certain 

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 11961
    • Reputation: +7516/-2254
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #133 on: October 19, 2019, 04:35:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, #2 and after are wrong because plenty of people want to “do God’s will” until they find out the Truth - ie that Scripture says that God’s will is our “sanctification”.  This means that to be truly holy, we must follow ALL the 10 commandments (and all the Church’s rules on the 6th and 9th), which are many.  And then people reject the Church because they don’t want Christ’s version of holiness but their own.  They don’t want rules around divorce, contraception and marriage because it’s too hard.  So they go find an easier church, they blame their rejection of Catholicism on some historical lie (Inquisition, Crusades) or some theological lie (Protestantism) and they continue on with their life, all the while claiming that they are “good people” who want to “do God’s will”.  These people don’t have any good will, because only God’s will is good, and if they reject His religion, then they reject goodness Himself.  

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3330/-1939
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #134 on: October 19, 2019, 04:36:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There are also different levels of "implicit".

    Explicit:  I want to become a Catholic and want to be baptized.
    Implicit 1:  I want to become a Catholic (implicit want to be baptized).
    Implicit 2:  I want to do God's will (implicit want to become a Catholic, since it's what God wills, and implicit want to be baptized, since it's what God wills).
    Implicit 3:  I'm a nice guy doing the best I can (implicit want to do God's will ... the rest as in Implicit 2).

    Most people believe in Implicit 3 today.

    As seen by how it could lead to #3, this notion of "implicit" is one of the most dangerous in all of Catholic theology, being exploited to no end by enemies of the faith to undermine Catholic dogma.

    Implicit 2 lines up with Rewarder God theory and didn't exist before that was invented by a couple of Jesuits around 1600.

    Implicit 1 (and Explicit of course) requires explicit faith in the core Catholic dogmas.

    Implicit 3 opens things up even to atheists, or even to, hypothetically, those who believe that God rewards the wicked and punishes the just ... like the Aztecs and worshippers of Baal or even Satanists.
    I never even thought of Implicit 3, which is no surprise to me since I don't study error,  but you are right, these fake BODers like John do fall into #3.

    Of course #2, implicit faith in a God that rewards, is as far as I get with them, once they admit to that belief, as this poster John did, there is no need to discuss anything further. There you have the ultimate hypocrisy, a man who rejects Vatican II because it is heretical, but believes that Mohamedans, Hindus, Jews.....people in any religion, can be saved, the belief that is the pillar, the purpose, of all Vatican II!

    As a strict EENSer, I do not accept even explicit faith baptism of desire, because God has no need of it. However, I am not going to lose one second discussing it with someone like this John, who rejects explicit faith as a requirement for salvation.