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Author Topic: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video  (Read 8199 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2019, 06:49:39 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus did not unambiguously support the Thomistic thesis that explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation is necessary for salvation.

    No.  He held the one opinion but tolerated the other.  He was clearly mistaken about that of course, but that's a separate issue.

    You have made your agenda clear, which is the agenda of nearly all BoDers, to use BoD to undermine EENS dogma.  You care nothing about the rare case of a catechumen who might die shortly before Baptism.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #76 on: October 11, 2019, 06:51:17 PM »
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  • Rewader God theory was a novelty invented by the Jesuits around the year 1600.  Until that time, no Catholic had ever taught or believed that salvation was possible without explicit knowledge of and faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  That rendered it a dogma of the OUM.  Not to mention the formal/solemn expression of the same in the Athanasian creed.

    Rewarder God theory is the watershed heresy that led ultimately to Vatican II.

    Now, it's very interesting that you claim we must accept BoD because belief in it has become pervasive.  But then those Jesuits in 1600 were bound to accept the 1600-year Tradition that they were trying to overturn, no?  So these Jesuits were allowed to introduce novelties and overturn the universal consensus, but we Feeneyites must accept the modern universal consensus ... even though it's well established that the modern world has been thoroughly polluted with subjectivism since about the time of the Renaissance.  It's one hypocrisy, lie, and contradiction after another by the Cushingites.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #77 on: October 11, 2019, 06:57:39 PM »
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  • Here's an example of a grave Alphonsian contradiction on BoD.

    He claimed that BoD was de fide based on a letter written by Pope Innocent.  Then he claimed that BoD did not remit all the temporal punishment for sin.  But the other Pope Innocent, in a nearly-identical letter, with the same degree of authority, declared that such a one would IMMEDIATELY enter heaven.  Consequently, by his own criteria, he was a heretic for claiming that BoD did not remit all temporal punishment due to sin.

    As a final nail in the coffin, the Council of Trent taught that the grace of initial justification was a rebirth so that no temporal punishment remained.  Consequently, it's a rejection of Trent to state that an initial justification (vs. a subsequent re-justification through Confession) can happen without being a rebirth that wiped away all eternal and temporal stain of sin.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #78 on: October 11, 2019, 07:01:32 PM »
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  • and decemrationis could benefit from that as well.. so could ladislaus for that matter...

    You're really a very cocky little heretic, aren't you?, the way you talk down to everyone.  You could benefit from actually studying the matter with a sincere interest in the truth and without an underlying contempt for EENS dogma.  In fact, if you reject this implicit BoD, then you are bound to accept the teachings of Vatican II, which are all grounded in an ecclesiology based on your broader soteriology.  Consequently, if you believe this about EENS, then you are a schismatic for wrongly rejecting the teachings of Vatican II.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #79 on: October 11, 2019, 08:05:54 PM »
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  • Rewader God theory was a novelty invented by the Jesuits around the year 1600.  Until that time, no Catholic had ever taught or believed that salvation was possible without explicit knowledge of and faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  That rendered it a dogma of the OUM.  Not to mention the formal/solemn expression of the same in the Athanasian creed.

    Rewarder God theory is the watershed heresy that led ultimately to Vatican II.

    Now, it's very interesting that you claim we must accept BoD because belief in it has become pervasive.  But then those Jesuits in 1600 were bound to accept the 1600-year Tradition that they were trying to overturn, no?  So these Jesuits were allowed to introduce novelties and overturn the universal consensus, but we Feeneyites must accept the modern universal consensus ... even though it's well established that the modern world has been thoroughly polluted with subjectivism since about the time of the Renaissance.  It's one hypocrisy, lie, and contradiction after another by the Cushingites.
    Given that this theory was certainly accepted at least as allowable by the Pre Vatican II magisterium, how are you not using an Eastern Orthodox epistemology by calling this heresy?  This isn't an accusation.  I'm just honestly confused by it.

    I'm not actually convinced that either position is heresy, probably because I'm not convinced the Ordinary Magisterium is quite as big as most people think it is.

    But I'm also skeptical of the claim that nobody questioned this before 1600.  You have Dante, though its a poetic work, thus questionable, and there's Justin Martyr, though I may be interpreting him incorrectly, and there could be others regarding who I'm not  aware... or there aren't.

    Isn't the (even Pre Vatican II) magisterium attempting to say you're wrong about the consensus here based on their allowance of the theory pre Vatican II?


    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #80 on: October 11, 2019, 08:11:48 PM »
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  • .. I knew you were "educated"...ladislost! I just didn't know it was this bad!
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #81 on: October 11, 2019, 09:06:16 PM »
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  • Haha. "Talking down"? I only follow your lead... 

    Maybe you should have gotten canonized instead of St. Alphonsus! 

    Maybe when we get a real pope, he'll do that for you! 

    In the meantime  you should sue your school for false advertisement and get a refund for your "degree"...
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #82 on: October 11, 2019, 09:13:51 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus said that the opinion is "also quite probable"... not " tolerated" as you lyingly stated...

    You dont think that St. Alphonsus and Pope St. Pius X believe in EENS? 

    You are preposterous...and dishonest...
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #83 on: October 11, 2019, 09:52:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    John, are men saved only in the Catholic religion?



    Quote
    Trad123-
    this answers you as well..

    St. Alphonsus did not unambiguously support the Thomistic thesis that explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation is necessary for salvation. In his “Theologia Moralis,” Alphonsus asks which articles of faith must be explicitly believed for salvation and he considers four:
    1. God exists.
     2. God “is a rewarder to them that seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).
     3. The Holy Trinity.
     4. The Incarnation.
    He says explicit belief in the first two is certainly necessary, while explicit belief in the last two is necessary according to the more common and more probable opinion, but he explains why the contrary opinion is “also quite probable.”

    They are both probable, the first one being more likely, the second being "also quite probable".


    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm


    Quote
    Quote
    2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages. Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:


    (. . .)


    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #84 on: October 11, 2019, 11:29:17 PM »
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  • Leaving aside the fact that its not an infallible statement, the context of that is Protestants who are entering into mixed marriages with Catholics.  Its at least highly, HIGHLY unlikely that someone who's married to a Catholic could be invincibly ignorant.  Maybe even impossible.

    Furthermore, since its not an infallible definition, its possible there's some wiggle room.  Its not obvious to me whether he means *every single* Protestant is damned, without exception, or if he's making a more general statement with the intent of stomping out indifferentism.  Because that seems to be the context, from what I recall.  Catholics marrying Protestants casually, as if it didn't make a difference what religion you're part of.

    I'm not convinced there's a straight line between this quote and Feeney.  I also find it difficult to believe Lefebvre was simply ignorant of that quote.  

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #85 on: October 12, 2019, 06:35:28 PM »
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  • Pius IX - 1849
    Nostis Et Nobiscuм
    On the Church in the Pontifical States

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9nostis.htm


    Quote
    10. In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation.


    From the letter "Super quibusdam" to the Consolator, the Catholicon of the Armenians, Sept. 20, 1351:

    Denzinger 1051 570b

    http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/dw1.htm


    Quote
    In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.


    Mirari Vos
    On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism
    Gregory XVI - 1832

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16mirar.htm

    Quote
    13. Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

    Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle that “there is one God, one faith, one baptism”[16] may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever.

    They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that “those who are not with Christ are against Him,”[17] and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore “without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate.”

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #86 on: October 12, 2019, 06:40:09 PM »
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  • Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen

    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml


    Quote
    The attitude of the Catholic Church towards pagans, Mohammedans and Jєωs has always been clear — there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Even supposing a person were invincibly ignorant of the true Church, he must still follow the natural law to be saved (implicit baptism of desire).



    Quote
    indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #87 on: October 12, 2019, 07:10:24 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus said that the opinion is "also quite probable"... not " tolerated" as you lyingly stated...

    You dont think that St. Alphonsus and Pope St. Pius X believe in EENS?

    You are preposterous...and dishonest...

    Probably in the sense that he did not believe it himself = tolerated.  He clearly sided with one, while you reject his opinion and side with the other.  You must consider yourself more learned than St. Alphonsus, even though you try to throw his name around to promote your heresy.

    You are of bad will and despise the EENS dogma; you're not fooling anyone.

    Regardless, one opinion is right and one is wrong.  They cannot both be right.  And you're on the side that St. Alphonsus was NOT on.  So you are against St. Alphonsus, stating that he went with the incorrect opinion, but you got it right.  You ignorant hypocrite you.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #88 on: October 12, 2019, 08:21:31 PM »
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  • Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen

    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml
    I think an implicit BOD, if it exists, would have to be more than just "following the natural law".  Following the natural law, alone, would seem to merit Limbo only.  You'd need to at least have supernatural faith of some kind.  A deep seated willingness to do *Whatever* God commands for salvation, as well as a faith in whatever revelation he had about God, and perfect contrition for mortal sins.

    Indifferentism has to mean more than just believing salvation is *possible* in other religions. Otherwise +Lefebvre would be an indifferentist and that's obviously stupid.

    Indifferentism is more like putting all religions on an equal plane or denying that there is only one religion that, in the ultimate sense, leads to Heavenly bliss.  And yes I know that sounds similar to your definition but there's an important though subtle difference.

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #89 on: October 12, 2019, 08:27:17 PM »
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  • Implicit Baptism of Desire does not contradict EENS ....and for you to just assert that it does contradict it is not an argument.. it's just you throwing a tantrum..

    Funny how you say Fr. Jenkins is your favorite priest of all time! 
    Maybe you can get educated by him on what the Church means when it teaches Implicit BOD .. 
    He definitely teaches it... 
    or do you call him a heretic too? 
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him