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Author Topic: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video  (Read 8216 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2019, 06:36:33 AM »
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  • I think the principle you mentioned is being abused to justify positions that some have taken in this crisis.  What commentary are you relying on that justifies many of the positions we see in our times, rejecting a rite of mass approved by the Pope, rejecting canons approved by the Pope, etc.

    I’ve never seen any, and I think it’s a made up novelty.

    I’d like to see a single writing from the time of the Apostles all the way to 1960 that ever states that a rite of mass could be an abomination, or a sacrilege, or an incentive to impiety, and therefore Catholics must reject the papally approved mass.  
    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." Gal. 1:8
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #61 on: October 11, 2019, 08:06:41 AM »
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  • There are 2 “approved” rites at the moment, legally speaking.  Only one is morally approved, from a theological standpoint.  The other is essentially optional because there is no command to attend it or accept it.  Because the V2 popes have not commanded the novus ordo to be attended under any penalty of sin, so it's not a “rejection” of papal authority to ignore it.  They could have made it obligatory but they didn’t.  Same thing for V2.
    .
    I know this is contrary to your sede narrative, but facts are facts.  There are other legitimate reasons which support sede-ism, but this isn’t one.
    No, you don’t have to go to it under canon law, but you are still required by the precept of the Church to financially support your local canonical parish and pastor, even if you choose to fulfill your mass obligation elsewhere.  


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #62 on: October 11, 2019, 08:09:45 AM »
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  • "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." Gal. 1:8
    That doesn’t prove anything.  Can the Catholic Church give evil to its flock through its approved sacramental rites?  Yes or no?  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #63 on: October 11, 2019, 09:00:20 AM »
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  • That doesn’t prove anything.  Can the Catholic Church give evil to its flock through its approved sacramental rites?  Yes or no?  
    You asked for something in writing, you got what you asked for.

    To answer you, of course the Church cannot give evil.

     Is the pope the Church, yes or no?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #64 on: October 11, 2019, 11:31:49 AM »
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  • You asked for something in writing, you got what you asked for.

    To answer you, of course the Church cannot give evil.

     Is the pope the Church, yes or no?
    An answer verbally or in writing may not actually answer the question.   
    That’s good that you say the Church cannot give evil.  To say such is heresy.  
    The trouble with your view is that what you are saying leads you, if you are logical to say that.  
    The Pope is the head of the Church, his office was created not by man, but by God Himself.  Whatever he binds, is bound.  If he makes changes to the sacramental rites of the Church, then those changed rites are then the approved sacramental rites of the Church.  
    There is no way around this unless you deny Catholic teaching on the Papacy.   


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #65 on: October 11, 2019, 12:03:47 PM »
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  • An answer verbally or in writing may not actually answer the question.  
    That’s good that you say the Church cannot give evil.  To say such is heresy.  
    The trouble with your view is that what you are saying leads you, if you are logical to say that.  
    The Pope is the head of the Church, his office was created not by man, but by God Himself.  Whatever he binds, is bound.  If he makes changes to the sacramental rites of the Church, then those changed rites are then the approved sacramental rites of the Church.  
    There is no way around this unless you deny Catholic teaching on the Papacy.  
    What leads me is the fact that the Church is Christ, they are one and the same. Christ is the head of the Church, the pope is only the visible head, we might say that as Christ's Vicar, he is Christ's deputy but our superior. We can also say that he will answer to Christ for everything he says and does - just like the rest of us. There is no escape for any of us, not even the pope.

    To date, no one has mentioned exactly what it is that he is supposed to have bound us to.

    As for the new [sacramental] rites, he is bound to protect and preserve them, that's why God created the office. God did not establish the papacy in order for the pope to change them into something new, something doubtful. Then again, he actually believes that whatever he says or does is infallible or infallibly safe.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #66 on: October 11, 2019, 12:35:43 PM »
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  • What leads me is the fact that the Church is Christ, they are one and the same. Christ is the head of the Church, the pope is only the visible head, we might say that as Christ's Vicar, he is Christ's deputy but our superior. We can also say that he will answer to Christ for everything he says and does - just like the rest of us. There is no escape for any of us, not even the pope.

    To date, no one has mentioned exactly what it is that he is supposed to have bound us to.

    As for the new [sacramental] rites, he is bound to protect and preserve them, that's why God created the office. God did not establish the papacy in order for the pope to change them into something new, something doubtful. Then again, he actually believes that whatever he says or does is infallible or infallibly safe.
    Your view diminishes the Papacy snd makes the office useless, giving lay people veto power over the Pope’s laws, as to whether they think such laws are In conformity with Tradition or not.  Your view is not in conformity with Catholic teaching.  It makes the Church into a democracy, rather than a monarchy.  

    I gave you an example as you requested, the Novus Ordo, promulgated by Paul VI and continued by those after him, including Francis.  If these men were Popes, you are bound to submit to this new law and not attack it, knowing that any rite approved by the Pope for the Catholic Church cannot be evil, and must be an incentive to piety.  Even though you can fulfill your Sunday obligation elsewhere, you are also bound by law (one of the 6 precepts of the Church) to financially support your canonical pastor at your local parish.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #67 on: October 11, 2019, 01:41:30 PM »
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  • Your view diminishes the Papacy snd makes the office useless, giving lay people veto power over the Pope’s laws, as to whether they think such laws are In conformity with Tradition or not.  Your view is not in conformity with Catholic teaching.  It makes the Church into a democracy, rather than a monarchy. 
    I know right from wrong, as such I know when the pope wants me to do something wrong - we've had 2000 years worth of popes to teach us right from wrong, that's one of the ways we all know right from wrong - and what the conciliar popes do and wish we would do is wrong, and we must not follow them in their error or we will go to hell. If you like to think that makes the Church a democracy, so be it. But I know that the Church is Christ, and I belong to the Church.




    Quote
    I gave you an example as you requested, the Novus Ordo, promulgated by Paul VI and continued by those after him, including Francis.  If these men were Popes, you are bound to submit to this new law and not attack it, knowing that any rite approved by the Pope for the Catholic Church cannot be evil, and must be an incentive to piety.  Even though you can fulfill your Sunday obligation elsewhere, you are also bound by law (one of the 6 precepts of the Church) to financially support your canonical pastor at your local parish. 
    We are bound to obey God first, because of that, we may not follow the popes in their error - and these men are true popes, true they are evil, but no one has proved they are not popes.

    We all know that the conciliar popes publicly commit grave sins and scandals, they should not do this, they must not do this - but people think that they are divinely protected from doing this - they're not. They are only protected from the slightest possibility of error when they define a dogma ex cathedra. That's it. Beyond that, they can do as they have done, namely, publicly sin all they want and remain pope. There is nothing anyone can do about it - zero, nadda, nuthin. But we don't follow them in their errors on account of them being popes - unless we want to sin. 

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #68 on: October 11, 2019, 02:33:20 PM »
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  • I know right from wrong, as such I know when the pope wants me to do something wrong - we've had 2000 years worth of popes to teach us right from wrong, that's one of the ways we all know right from wrong - and what the conciliar popes do and wish we would do is wrong, and we must not follow them in their error or we will go to hell. If you like to think that makes the Church a democracy, so be it. But I know that the Church is Christ, and I belong to the Church.



    We are bound to obey God first, because of that, we may not follow the popes in their error - and these men are true popes, true they are evil, but no one has proved they are not popes.

    We all know that the conciliar popes publicly commit grave sins and scandals, they should not do this, they must not do this - but people think that they are divinely protected from doing this - they're not. They are only protected from the slightest possibility of error when they define a dogma ex cathedra. That's it. Beyond that, they can do as they have done, namely, publicly sin all they want and remain pope. There is nothing anyone can do about it - zero, nadda, nuthin. But we don't follow them in their errors on account of them being popes - unless we want to sin.
    Your entire theory is built on a false premise, namely that a Pope can in fact legislate a law that binds the universal Church on a liturgical matter that could be evil or a cause for impiety.  In short, a Pope could never by virtue of his office do what you think he could do, thereby causing you to have to resist his law. “There ain’t no such animal in the Catholic Church.”

    You won’t find a single source which states what you think, your entire assumption of what the Church teaches on this matter is based on your ideas on the fact of Paul VI and his successors being real Popes and the fact that they gave the Church a sacrilegious sacramental rite.   You assume from that that belief that a Pope could in fact give the Church such an evil rite, therefore one must in principle reject the Pope’s evil law.  

    The problem with your idea is that it leads to a heretical view on the Papacy, and is clearly supporting a democratic Church where the laity judge the Pope’s laws as to whether they are Traditional or not.  The Catholic teaching on this is clear, the laity never need to make such judgments as the Pope is protected from binding the universal Church to an evil law in the first place.  

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #69 on: October 11, 2019, 04:37:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: John on October 07, 2019, 12:18:29 PM
    Quote
    What does it matter if I do believe in what St. Thomas Aquinas says on the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation? I do not deny it. That is what he taught and it is not wrong.

    But do you claim it heresy to believe what St. Alphonsus Liguori or Pope St. Pius X taught, not merely "tolerated" about implicit desire in the quotes that I copied above? Or Pope Pius IX? Or XII? Because that is precisely what they say.. or can you prove otherwise?

    St. Augustine says that (paraphrase) if I don't understand the paradox of two teachings like that, it is always better to doubt my own mental abilities than to conclude that the Church erred.
    [color][size][size]


    Marylandtrad
    John, St. Alphonsus and Pope St. Pius X both believed that an explicit faith in the mysteries of the Trinity and Incarnation are absolutely necessary for salvation. They did not use the word "implicit" in relation to baptism of desire in the same sense that you are using the word. They only meant that it would be possible for someone who just learned of God's goodness and love through faith in the principal mysteries to implicitly desire baptism before they heard of the sacrament.

    But for the sake of argument, lets say that you were right and that St. Alphonsus and Pope St. Pius X both believed that those who die as unbelievers can be saved. You seem to admit that St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe what you are alleging St. Alphonsus and St. Pius X taught. You call your idea that these two contradictory propositions could somehow both be true a "paradox," and then justify your violating a fundamental principle of logic by appealing to your own limited mental abilities.

    If you hold that the laity must ignore the principal of non-contradiction and instead hold the principle of invincible stupidity, how on earth can you be a sedevacantist? If you think that two contradictory propositions can both be true at the same time, how could you possibly judge that the men thought to be popes by the entire world taught heresy? Where did your intellectual humility go when you made that judgment?  

    St. Alphonsus did not unambiguously support the Thomistic thesis that explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation is necessary for salvation. In his “Theologia Moralis,” Alphonsus asks which articles of faith must be explicitly believed for salvation and he considers four:
    1. God exists.
     2. God “is a rewarder to them that seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).
     3. The Holy Trinity.
     4. The Incarnation.

    He says explicit belief in the first two is certainly necessary, while explicit belief in the last two is necessary according to the more common and more probable opinion, but he explains why the contrary opinion is “also quite probable.”

    They are both probable, the first one being more likely, the second being "also quite probable". 

    That is completely unrelated to the idea that you brought up about these impostors and the absolute heresy that they vomit forth daily.

    [/size][/size][/color]



    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #70 on: October 11, 2019, 04:41:14 PM »
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  • Marylandtrad

    St. Alphonsus Liguori and Pope St. Pius X also did explicitly use the word "implicit" and I even quoted them above.. Why would you just ignore that and make up things?
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him


    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #71 on: October 11, 2019, 04:44:48 PM »
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  • Trad123-
    this answers you as well..

    St. Alphonsus did not unambiguously support the Thomistic thesis that explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation is necessary for salvation. In his “Theologia Moralis,” Alphonsus asks which articles of faith must be explicitly believed for salvation and he considers four:
    1. God exists.
     2. God “is a rewarder to them that seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).
     3. The Holy Trinity.
     4. The Incarnation.

    He says explicit belief in the first two is certainly necessary, while explicit belief in the last two is necessary according to the more common and more probable opinion, but he explains why the contrary opinion is “also quite probable.”

    They are both probable, the first one being more likely, the second being "also quite probable". 
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #72 on: October 11, 2019, 04:49:21 PM »
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  • Paxvobis and Donkath

    Yes, cuм ex apostolatus officio is still in effect.. it is also called canon 188
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #73 on: October 11, 2019, 04:51:31 PM »
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  • and decemrationis could benefit from that as well.. so could ladislaus for that matter...
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #74 on: October 11, 2019, 06:12:24 PM »
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  • As a matter of fact, the last tradhican's "argument" is also pretty deflated in the light of what St. Alphonsus Liguori says...
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him