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Author Topic: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video  (Read 8202 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2019, 09:08:40 PM »
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    • Well on the one hand i certainly find the pro BOD position more persuasive, but on the other hand, I'll note that I've not seen Ladislaus quote Dimond at all on this issue, but rather, church dogmas.

    Mind, I do agree with the critique that he's interpreting them himself and that that's wrong, but he's not using the dimonds really.  He doesn't agree with them either.  The Dimonds are a lot more hardline on who they declare a formal heretic than he is.
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #31 on: October 05, 2019, 11:04:11 PM »
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    • Seems like Fr. Crawford's little treatise is getting under several skins.... 
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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #32 on: October 06, 2019, 05:54:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 04, 2019, 11:27:03 AM
    Seems it's pretty much vanished from the internet but here's this.
    Thanks Stubborn!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #33 on: October 06, 2019, 07:12:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: John on October 05, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
    Wow..I can log on here after 8 years and all you can do is still deflect. That was to be expected.

     The LAD-IS-LOST!

     You meant rather to say that you do not care about BOD as it is taught by THE CHURCH.. OFFICIALLY!

    because you do not respect Church authority. Period!

    No, BoD is NOT taught officially by the Church.  It has been tolerated and not condemned, but nowhere has it been officially taught ... despite your distortions and misreading of Church teaching.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #34 on: October 06, 2019, 07:15:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: John on October 05, 2019, 08:49:18 PM
    You have no case but to either refer to the Dimonds.. and they are thoroughly discredited..or to deflect...

    Wrong, idiot.  Most of those here on CI are "Feeneyites" and do not accept the Dimond spin on it.  Contrary to popular CMRI belief, the Dimonds did not invent EENS.  I've had the Dimonds write to me and attack me for not being dogmatic about the BoD question.  Very few true Feeneyites are.

    But again, Johnny, answer my question.  Don't post again until you do.

    Do you accept the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas that no one can be saved without explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #35 on: October 06, 2019, 07:20:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 05, 2019, 09:08:40 PM
    Well on the one hand i certainly find the pro BOD position more persuasive, but on the other hand, I'll note that I've not seen Ladislaus quote Dimond at all on this issue, but rather, church dogmas.

    Mind, I do agree with the critique that he's interpreting them himself and that that's wrong, but he's not using the dimonds really.  He doesn't agree with them either.  The Dimonds are a lot more hardline on who they declare a formal heretic than he is.

    Thank you.  You are correct.  I disagreed with them on their dogmatism, and they excoriated me harshly for doing so; they wrote me personally.  Father Feeney himself categorized his stance on BoD as opinion, stating that he would immediately drop it if the contrary were taught by the Church.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #36 on: October 06, 2019, 07:23:17 PM »
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    • Although I disagree with Lad’s BOD position, he is definitely NOT a Dimondite
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #37 on: October 06, 2019, 07:56:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on October 06, 2019, 07:23:17 PM
    Although I disagree with Lad’s BOD position, he is definitely NOT a Dimondite

    Thank you.  I have in fact suggested that the Dimonds have adopted a schismatic attitude by excommunicating from the Church those whom the Church has accepted.  In fact, the Church has canonized and declared Doctors of the Church St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, and St. Alphonsus ... all of whom believed in Baptism of Desire.  Now, these three Doctors also all taught that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are required for salvation, so their notion of BoD did not extend to infidels, e.g. Jєωs, Muslims, or jungle animists, to name a few.  But you'd be surprised at how many of those who try to beat us over the head with their authority in favor of BoD then turn around and reject the teachings of the same where it comes to the requirement for explicit belief.  When I cornered the CI poster "Lover of Truth" by this argument, he backed away and stated that these were required.  But then when the context changed, on a different thread, he resumed posting again in favor of salvation for infidels.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #38 on: October 06, 2019, 08:24:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: John on October 05, 2019, 07:05:44 AM
    It must be frustrating to not have any catechism that you can use... or not to be able to look something up in canon law, any theologian, any Saint, Father or Doctor of the Church, the Catholic Encyclopedia...etc., without that little Dimond :really-mad2:devil on your shoulder telling you to QUESTION AUTHORITY and put it back!!

    Typical PROTESTANTISM!


    You're a Sede right? And you want to criticize Feeneyites for "question[ing] authority"? 

    It's so ironic when Sedevacantists accuse Feeneyites or the R & R of "sifting" or "private judgment" or a "protestant" mentality. 

    What authority told you to reject five or so duly elected popes and the living Magisterium of the Church? It wasn't a pope of the Catholic Church; it wasn't the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. 

    Who then? Some bishop or priest? The Feeneyites and R & R have their clerical support and sources. 

    Perhaps you made your own judgment and drew what you saw as inevitable conclusions about the "Conciliar" Church based upon your reading in Tradition and the authority of the Magisterium of the ages? That's "private judgment" my friend. 

    No matter how you cut it, your dissent is as "protestant" and private judgmental as any Feeneyite and R & R. 

    Get a new tact against Feeneyism other than this "private judgment" line if you want to be taken as credible. 

    So I repeat: on what basis and on what "authority" did you become a Sede? Answer that honestly, pull the beam out of your eye, and maybe then rejoin the discussion. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #39 on: October 07, 2019, 11:53:32 AM »
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    • DecemRationis.. 

    The proof is cuм ex apostolatus officio,  Pope Paul IV, 1559

    Pretty sure that is a true Pope and that is the Magisterium of the Church..

    There are other sources but that will be sufficient...
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    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline John

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #40 on: October 07, 2019, 12:18:29 PM »
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    • Well, Ladislaus definitely provided a link by the Dimonds above , which he uses as a reference, while attacking the subject of the thread/video, so naturally it seemed as if he was defending/promoting them... 

    What does it matter if I do believe in what St. Thomas Aquinas says on the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation? I do not deny it. That is what he taught and it is not wrong. 

    But do you claim it heresy to believe what St. Alphonsus Liguori or Pope St. Pius X taught, not merely "tolerated" about implicit desire in the quotes that I copied above? Or Pope Pius IX? Or XII? Because that is precisely what they say.. or can you prove otherwise?

    St. Augustine says that (paraphrase) if I don't understand the paradox of two teachings like that, it is always better to doubt my own mental abilities than to conclude that the Church erred. 

    Where did Feeney say that his rejection of BOBBOD was merely an opinion? 
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    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #41 on: October 07, 2019, 12:24:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 05, 2019, 08:03:02 PM
    I was more commenting on the irony than anything else.  Its really, really weird to take a hardline "there is ABSOLUTELY no salvation without submission to the ROman Pontiff... but we haven't had a Roman Pontiff for 61 years" type position.  Or even worse a "There's certainly a Pope in Rome, but we want NOTHING to do with him."
    The dogma does not say "there is absolutely no salvation without submission to the Roman Pontiff".

    What the dogma *does* say, is:
    "...Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff".
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #42 on: October 07, 2019, 12:25:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on October 07, 2019, 12:24:04 PM
    The dogma does not say "there is absolutely no salvation without submission to the Roman Pontiff".

    What the dogma *does* say, is:
    "...Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff".
    There might be some subtle difference here.  I don't know what it would be, content wise.  I acknowledge that I technically did not quote it correctly.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #43 on: October 07, 2019, 12:30:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 07, 2019, 12:25:54 PM
    There might be some subtle difference here.  I don't know what it would be, content wise.  I acknowledge that I technically did not quote it correctly.
    Simply, in context "submit" means blind obedience no matter what - which obedience adults are not permitted to give any human.

    "Subject" in context means that we should have to continue to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, unless he should command something which is sinful.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Reverend Crawford , Feeney, Dimond video
    « Reply #44 on: October 07, 2019, 01:54:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: John on October 07, 2019, 11:53:32 AM

    DecemRationis..

    The proof is cuм ex apostolatus officio,  Pope Paul IV, 1559

    Pretty sure that is a true Pope and that is the Magisterium of the Church..

    There are other sources but that will be sufficient...

    Hi, John. Let me clarify and in the process also interpret your answer as answering my specific question.

    When I asked you “how” did you arrive at being a Sede, I was really asking about process, the method you used to arrive at your conclusion. Was it simply, I respect Bishop X and he says this, and he’s sound, so I will follow his reasoned judgment? Or, here’s a whole bunch of sound theologians and clerics (SSPV, CMRI, etc.) who have shown themselves faithful to Catholic truth and I will trust their considered judgment?

    Or was it, I know the faith and it says X, and the Conciliar Church teaches Y in its “universal” magisterium, so so-and-so can’t be pope and the CC can’t be the Catholic Church?

    By citing cuм Ex, it seems you’re taking the latter approach: “I see heresy in these teachings and cuм Ex says a heretic, even if a pope, is not to be followed, so I reject so-and-so(s) as pope.”

    I hope you can see that that’s what you call “private judgment.” If you disagree, please explain. Show me how you distinguish what you do from what a “Feeneyite” does when he applies Traditional, infallible Magisterial teaching to some lesser teaching of some pope or theologians and rejects it as counter to the Catholic faith and Tradition.

    If you don’t disagree that you are also engaging in “private judgment," stop accusing Feeneyites of “private judgment” and being “Protestant.” No only are you condemning yourself, but it’s not helpful and doesn’t help us think through the crisis.

    I think when the smoke clears and the Church - if it does clear before Our Lord’s return - turns its attention fully to this question to settle it, I suspect that the distinction between the infallible and the non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium will be clarified, and their will be a more limited understanding of the authority of the teaching Church (and its limitations) when it is not defining or declaring something as part of Revelation and the deposit of faith - a partial (at least) vindication of the distinction many Feeneyites make in their willingness to reject some non-infallible teachings of the teaching Church that appear to contradict the infallible  - or which can only be made to harmonize by some often questionable intellectual contortion that makes one’s gorge rise at it.

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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