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Author Topic: New video from mhfm  (Read 2005 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: New video from mhfm
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2023, 07:19:10 PM »
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  • Ok.

    He taught it in his Allocution to Italian Mid Wives, which was later published in the Acta.

    https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/allocution-to-midwives-8965

    (I'm not R&R, ewtn is simply the first site with that docuмent to pop up on google)
    I stand corrected in that Pius 12th taught BoD. Though I will point out this docuмent is not infallible. So while he erroneously taught BoD it is not the authoritative teaching of the Church.


    Pius 12th also teaches in 
    MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.


    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #31 on: April 07, 2023, 07:31:05 PM »
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  • Ok already a huge problem at the very beginning of the article. The author is assuming BoD is a doctrine when it's not simply because many theologians held the position (though modern BoD is different from what they held and the nuance is very important).

    This also misrepresents mhfm's position. They don't called the Popes, Saints and doctors heretics but they do call modern holders of BoD heretics even though there is an important nuance which they don't always distinguish in their videos calling modern supporters heretics. Because while most modern BoD supports hold the heretical version not all of them do so it is wrong to blanket them "all" as heretics. But to say they called the older Popes, Saints and doctors heretics is incorrect.

    I would advise reading the whole series of articles in relation to the Dimonds and BoD. Reading only one or 2 chunks isn't gonna mean much.

    And yes the modern kind of BoD we see more commonly today *can* be heretical. But as you say they don't all, and it's a matter of nuance as you say. Liberals abuse the concept of invincible ignorance and combine it with BoD for universal, automatic salvation. Then you have the position as held by like the SSPX or Bishop Sanborn.  *if* a practitioner of another religion is saved, it's because of his genuine invincible ignorance and true good will and perfect contrition. Of course, a pope already taught that nobody could really know where invincible ignorance lies and that it's ultimately unlawful to even bother speculating in too much specificity. So while technically that is true, to bring it up is irrelevant as only God would know something like that. Invincible ignorance doesn't save, but it prevents someone like say Cornelius the Centurion, who is genuinely good willed and genuinely desires God from being damned *soley* on account of not being able to believe things he could not know due to circuмstances beyond his control. But again these are speculations that lie well behind human capacity. This is why it was declared unlawful to speculated about. These kinds of speculations do not make one a heretic, because technically speaking it is true even if it only ever happened one time in all of history, but they are unprofitable to speak about because it lies well beyond what has been revealed to us.

    That speculation is different from the true BoD actually taught by the Church, which is BoD for catechumens that did not neglect or willfully delay baptism. Adding invincible ignorance simply complicates things and renders the discussion unprofitable.
    One day at a time.


    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #32 on: April 07, 2023, 07:39:24 PM »
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  • I stand corrected in that Pius 12th taught BoD. Though I will point out this docuмent is not infallible. So while he erroneously taught BoD it is not the authoritative teaching of the Church.


    Pius 12th also teaches in
    MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI
    ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
    22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jєωs or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

    We cannot disregard what a pope teaches because it isn't covered by infallibility. That was actually condemned.

    Also yes only those who are baptized are a part of the Church. This applies because if a catechumen cannot receive baptism before death, as long as he did not neglect baptism when he has the opportunity or avoid baptism, than his earnest desire for baptism would suffice in God's eyes. His soul would be marked extraordinarily (the ordinary means being normal water baptism), thus becoming a member of the Mystical Body before death and a part of the Church Triumphant or Penitent after death.
    One day at a time.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #33 on: April 07, 2023, 07:49:58 PM »
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  • We cannot disregard what a pope teaches because it isn't covered by infallibility. That was actually condemned.

    Also yes only those who are baptized are a part of the Church. This applies because if a catechumen cannot receive baptism before death, as long as he did not neglect baptism when he has the opportunity or avoid baptism, than his earnest desire for baptism would suffice in God's eyes. His soul would be marked extraordinarily (the ordinary means being normal water baptism), thus becoming a member of the Mystical Body before death and a part of the Church Triumphant or Penitent after death.
    If a Pope fallibly teaches a contradiction then we shouldn't put 'weight' on that statement when there are plenty of other infallible quotes that teach EENS and the need for baptism.

    I disagree with BoD. If someone dies without baptism then they are not among the elect, I don't believe that God is limited by 'impossibility' ("For nothing will be impossible with God.") but God is also not a liar. If God says one must be born again of water and spirit then He won't break His own rules but will provide baptism when/as He wills. 

    There is also the problem with BoD in regards to sins. If someone dies with BoD then one would assume they would automatically get to heaven, but even among Christians (Catholics), few are saved. Also if someone dies with BoD and comes back to life can they receive the Eucharist?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #34 on: April 07, 2023, 07:59:01 PM »
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  • I would advise reading the whole series of articles in relation to the Dimonds and BoD. Reading only one or 2 chunks isn't gonna mean much.

    And yes the modern kind of BoD we see more commonly today *can* be heretical. But as you say they don't all, and it's a matter of nuance as you say. Liberals abuse the concept of invincible ignorance and combine it with BoD for universal, automatic salvation. Then you have the position as held by like the SSPX or Bishop Sanborn.  *if* a practitioner of another religion is saved, it's because of his genuine invincible ignorance and true good will and perfect contrition. Of course, a pope already taught that nobody could really know where invincible ignorance lies and that it's ultimately unlawful to even bother speculating in too much specificity. So while technically that is true, to bring it up is irrelevant as only God would know something like that. Invincible ignorance doesn't save, but it prevents someone like say Cornelius the Centurion, who is genuinely good willed and genuinely desires God from being damned *soley* on account of not being able to believe things he could not know due to circuмstances beyond his control. But again these are speculations that lie well behind human capacity. This is why it was declared unlawful to speculated about. These kinds of speculations do not make one a heretic, because technically speaking it is true even if it only ever happened one time in all of history, but they are unprofitable to speak about because it lies well beyond what has been revealed to us.

    That speculation is different from the true BoD actually taught by the Church, which is BoD for catechumens that did not neglect or willfully delay baptism. Adding invincible ignorance simply complicates things and renders the discussion unprofitable.
    I would say the modern kind *is* heretical, only the old kind promoted by the Saints as non-heretical erroneous speculation. The modern kind is not the same as the old kind. Most people today do not hold the old kind but the modern.

    Indeed invincible ignorance doesn't save, but one is condemned not for ignorance but for their other sins. The 'true BoD' is speculation and has never been clearly and properly defined by the Church.

    Also BoB is a 'meme'. There is the 'potential' for BoD as speculated by the theologians but BoB has no such opportunity.

    Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino,”
    Quote
    It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

    "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ". This refutes Baptism of Blood.


    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #35 on: April 07, 2023, 09:43:33 PM »
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  • Hey Cornelius, I read G. Ruby’s article. While I agree that the Dimonds removed some clarifying information within the eclipses, in the first example he gives, that was only a single example. This was in one of their early works, so I would cut them some slack. 
    I think the later snips of papal docuмents that were supposed to be read with a given interpretation, wasn’t always the most logical interpretation.  It isn’t clear why he came to the conclusions that he did regarding these interpretations. 
    I think the meaning of the passages are more logical with those interpretations that the Dimonds give them. I will have to reread the article again later and see if I can “get” his thoughts better. 
    Anyway, thanks for the article.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #36 on: April 07, 2023, 10:14:33 PM »
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  • While I agree that the Dimonds removed some clarifying information within the eclipses, in the first example he gives, that was only a single example. 
    I followed this thread a little more because of the word "eclipses" here. I thought it might be from astronomy.

    Duns Scotus discussed a little how "the Moon is frequently eclipsed", but he doesn't go further and describe/define which way it goes around the Earth and in what time. I guess he thought everybody already knew and he didn't need to mention it.

    As far as the Dimonds go, I appreciate what I've seen and learned from them. There may be some mistakes but they seem to have a sincere interest in the integrity of the faith, even as they embarrass certain people. In my opinion though, there is a fundamental and profound distinction between moral knowledge with moral adherence to doctrine and then metaphysical certainty in metaphysical knowledge of the "great beyond" and the particular circuмstances of the "great beyond". I think people on this side are left a little more myopic or in the dark than they sometimes want to admit. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #37 on: April 08, 2023, 05:02:42 AM »
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  • I would advise reading the whole series of articles in relation to the Dimonds and BoD. Reading only one or 2 chunks isn't gonna mean much.
    What's crazy, you are going from one false prophet (Dimonds), to another (Ruby).
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #38 on: April 08, 2023, 06:45:27 AM »
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  • What's crazy, you are going from one false prophet (Dimonds), to another (Ruby).

    How so? I don't know much about him outside of the Dimond issue. I listened to an interview he had on Catholic family podcast and I am skeptical of some of his ideas but I'm open to him. He certainly doesn't anathematize people that don't agree with him like Dimond. 
    One day at a time.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #39 on: April 08, 2023, 07:10:56 AM »
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  • I've never seen any intentional distortion on their part.  Period.  I've seen misinterpretation and reading things into a source that weren't necessarily there, but then I see more of that on the BoDers side.  Misinterpretation of something is not the same thing as your slanderous accusation of deception and lying.
    It looks like TKGS provides an example above.  However, I am of the thinking that they should be given an opportunity to explain why they wrote what they wrote (as with any of us). They are still alive, so they could.  Now, if they choose not to explain it or ignore it, then I think it would be fair to make the conclusion that the "mistake" was deliberate. 

    Having said that, I am grateful to the DB's for being the first ones to open our eyes.  But, just as with any other internet personality (especially those that are not true Catholic clergy with formal Catholic training), we must be cautious. 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Cornelius

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #40 on: April 08, 2023, 08:09:46 AM »
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  • It looks like TKGS provides an example above.  However, I am of the thinking that they should be given an opportunity to explain why they wrote what they wrote (as with any of us). They are still alive, so they could.  Now, if they choose not to explain it or ignore it, then I think it would be fair to make the conclusion that the "mistake" was deliberate. 

    Having said that, I am grateful to the DB's for being the first ones to open our eyes.  But, just as with any other internet personality (especially those that are not true Catholic clergy with formal Catholic training), we must be cautious.

    It's been years since Griff's series on them. They have never mentioned him as far as I know.
    One day at a time.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #41 on: April 08, 2023, 08:59:15 AM »
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  • How so? I don't know much about him outside of the Dimond issue. I listened to an interview he had on Catholic family podcast and I am skeptical of some of his ideas but I'm open to him. He certainly doesn't anathematize people that don't agree with him like Dimond.
    I started to explain, but honestly, you, imo, are progressing the way you're supposed to in this crisis - you keep searching and seeking for the truth as you're doing, and you will most assuredly find it.

    The issue is not a BOD per se, because unless the whole theory is interpreted, re-interpreted, explained and debated, there is no possible way one would be able to learn or get a BOD out of any official docuмents of the Church because the term is nowhere to be found. This fact in and of itself condemns the idea of a BOD as nothing more than an idea,  or a theological speculation.

    The issue, IMO, is that BODers wholly and fully, and absolutely reject the indisputable fact that a BOD is contrary to so many of the Church's other clear, infallible and de fide teachings and doctrines.

    For instance, can you name even one instance, just name one, where God, Who Personally mandated it's necessity for salvation, would not or could not provide the sacrament to one who sincerely desires it? Of course you can't, because if you did, you would be going contrary to the Doctrine of Divine Providence. That's only one doctrine, there are many other doctrines one needs to reject in order for a BOD make it.


    From a previous post, I said:
    I like how Fr. Wathen put it in a sermon about NO heretics, had nothing to do with a BOD but I like the way he puts it......

    "...All of you know very well, what God has revealed both in the Old Testament and through Christ and His Apostles, is one doctrine. Not only does it mean one thing, but it is a single, as it were, a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity.

    Therefore, anyone who in any way teaches contrary to any one of it’s doctrines, any part of this holy deposit, violates it’s holiness and of course the truth of God.  And if anyone comes forth and presents a doctrine contrary to it, he necessarily rouses the ire of Almighty God because he substitutes his puny human ideas and preferences to the holiness of the Divine Revelation...""

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #42 on: April 08, 2023, 12:32:46 PM »
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  • “I followed this thread a little more because of the word "eclipses" here. I thought it might be from astronomy.” Haha Sorry to disappoint you Donachie. I don’t have the best eyesight and I have a phone that autocorrects randomly. 🙃

    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: New video from mhfm
    « Reply #43 on: April 08, 2023, 12:36:38 PM »
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  • This is very succinct and true Stubborn:
    "...All of you know very well, what God has revealed both in the Old Testament and through Christ and His Apostles, is one doctrine. Not only does it mean one thing, but it is a single, as it were, a single cloth woven from the top so that there are no seams, there is a perfect unity.

    Therefore, anyone who in any way teaches contrary to any one of it’s doctrines, any part of this holy deposit, violates it’s holiness and of course the truth of God.  And if anyone comes forth and presents a doctrine contrary to it, he necessarily rouses the ire of Almighty God because he substitutes his puny human ideas and preferences to the holiness of the Divine Revelation..."

    I like Father Wathen too.