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Author Topic: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again  (Read 1542 times)

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Offline CatholicInAmerica

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Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2023, 05:43:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 15, 2023, 04:02:07 PM
    Well, I think that the primary meaning is the same as the famous "born again" passages, where there are two types of birth, a natural birth and a supernatural, and this passage distinguishes between the two.  But I do find the references to not by blood, not by the will to be very suggestive.  These words were written by the Holy Ghost and likely have several layers of depth and meaning.
    in my post above, Aquinas explains what “not by blood” and “not by will” mean. They have no relation to baptism.  
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    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #16 on: March 15, 2023, 05:47:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on March 15, 2023, 05:42:16 PM
    This is from Aquinas, I’ll trust Aquinas Latin over a Twitter feenyite who erroneously interprets scripture.
    "Feeneyite" Friarminor doesn't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification, nor do I. 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #17 on: March 15, 2023, 06:15:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on March 15, 2023, 05:43:43 PM
    in my post above, Aquinas explains what “not by blood” and “not by will” mean. They have no relation to baptism. 
    Well who is Aquinas that we should believe him? Don't you realise I have an opinion too? Those are the obvious questions these people are asking. Perhaps the Church will benefit from their wisdom one day. Leave them to their Protestant dialogue. 
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #18 on: March 15, 2023, 06:55:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on March 15, 2023, 06:15:35 PM
    Well who is Aquinas that we should believe him? Don't you realise I have an opinion too? Those are the obvious questions these people are asking. Perhaps the Church will benefit from their wisdom one day. Leave them to their Protestant dialogue.


    EDIT: didn’t realize what you were saying. You are right :laugh1:
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #19 on: March 15, 2023, 06:58:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on March 15, 2023, 06:55:01 PM
    Are you mental? Who is AQUINAS that we should believe him???? Doctor of the Church… “Angelic Dr”…. Saint etc etc

    :facepalm::facepalm:
    Yes, CIA, that's my point, I think you misinterpreted my comment. That is effectively what some on this thread are saying. It is impossible to comprehend how a Catholic can have such an attitude. 
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #20 on: March 15, 2023, 06:59:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on March 15, 2023, 06:58:41 PM
    Yes, CIA, that's my point, I think you misinterpreted my comment. That is effectively what some on this thread are saying. It is impossible to comprehend how a Catholic can have such an attitude.
    My apologies I did misinterpret :jester:
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #21 on: March 15, 2023, 07:55:11 PM »
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    • Terrific news!  Nobody can be “born again” = nobody can be saved.  We’re all doomed to Hell.  Christ died on the Cross to no avail.  OP really made my day.  May as well eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.  

    WAIT!  Isn’t there something called the One, Holy, Roman, Apostolic, Catholic Church that has this thing called the Magisterium to interpret Scripture and the writings of the Saints?
    Or is this it?

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: The Last Gospel of the Mass declares no one can be born again
    « Reply #22 on: March 15, 2023, 11:22:28 PM »
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    • From the Catena Aurea of St Thomas Aquinas, Vol IV, Gospel of St John:
    1:11–13
    11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. in Joan. ix. 1) When He said that the world knew Him not, he referred to the times of the old dispensation, but what follows has reference to the time of his preaching; He came unto his own.
    AUGUSTINE. (in Joan. Tr. i) Because all things were made by Him.
    THEOPHYLACT. By his own, understand either the world, or Judæa, which He had chosen for His inheritance.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. x. [ix.] 2) He came then unto His own, not for His own good, but for the good of others. But whence did He Who fills all things, and is every where present, come? He came out of condescension to us, though in reality He had been in the world all along. But the world not seeing Him, because it knew Him not, He deigned to put on flesh. And this manifestation and condescension is called His advent. But the merciful God so contrives His dispensations, that we may shine forth in proportion to our goodness, and therefore He will not compel, but invites men, by persuasion and kindness, to come of their own accord: and so, when He came, some received Him, and others received Him not. He desires not an unwilling and forced service; for no one who comes unwillingly devotes himself wholly to Him. Whence what follows, And his own received him not. (Hom. ix. [viii.] 1). He here calls the Jєωs His own, as being his peculiar people; as indeed are all men in some sense, being made by Him. And as above, to the shame of our common nature, he said, that the world which was made by Him, knew not its Maker: so here again, indignant at the ingratitude of the Jєωs, he brings a heavier charge, viz. that His own received Him not.
    AUGUSTINE. (Tr. in Joan. ii. 12) But if none at all received, none will be saved. For no one will he saved, but he who received Christ at His coming; and therefore he adds, As many as received Him.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. in Joan. x. [ix.] 2) Whether they be bond or free, Greek or Barbarian, wise or unwise, women or men, the young or the aged, all are made meet for the honour, which the Evangelist now proceeds to mention. To them gave He power to become the sons of God.
    AUGUSTINE. (Tr. ii. 13) O amazing goodness! He was born the Only Son, yet would not remain so; but grudged not to admit joint heirs to His inheritance. Nor was this narrowed by many partaking of it.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. x. [ix.] 2) He saith not that He made them the sons of God, but gave them power to become the sons of God: shewing that there is need of much care, to preserve the image, which is formed by our adoption in Baptism, untarnished: and shewing at the same time also that no one can take this power from us, except we rob ourselves of it. Now, if the delegates of worldly governments have often nearly as much power as those governments themselves, much more is this the case with us, who derive our dignity from God. But at the same time the Evangelist wishes to shew that this grace comes to us of our own will and endeavour: that, in short, the operation of grace being supposed, it is in the power of our free will to make us the sons of God.
    THEOPHYLACT. Or the meaning is, that the most perfect sonship will only be attained at the resurrection, as saith the Apostle, Waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Rom. 8:23) He therefore gave us the power to become the sons of God, i. e. the power of obtaining this grace at some future time.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. x. 2) And because in the matter of these ineffable benefits, the giving of grace belongs to God, but the extending of faith to man, He subjoins, even to those who believe on his name. Why then declarest thou not, John, the punishment of those who received Him not? Is it because there is no greater punishment than that, when the power of becoming the sons of God is offered to men, they should not become such, but voluntarily deprive themselves of the dignity? But besides this, inextinguishable fire awaits all such, as will appear clearly farther on.
    AUGUSTINE. (Tr. ii. 14) To be made then the sons of God, and brothers of Christ, they must of course be born; for if they are not born, how can they be sons? Now the sons of men are born of flesh and blood, and the will of man, and the embrace of wedlock; but how these are born, the next words declare: Not of bloods1; that is, the male’s and the female’s. Bloods is not correct Latin, but as it is plural in the Greek, the translator preferred to put it so, though it be not strictly grammatical, at the same time explaining the word in order not to offend the weakness of one’s hearers.
    BEDE. It should be understood that in holy Scripture, blood in the plural number, has the signification of sin: thus in the Psalms Deliver me from blood-guiltiness. (Ps. 51:14).
    AUGUSTINE. (Tr. ii. 14) In that which follows, Nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, the flesh is put for the female; because, when she was made out of the rib, Adam said, This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. (Gen. 2:23) The flesh therefore is put for the wife, as the spirit sometimes is for the husband; because that the one ought to govern, the other to obey. For what is there worse than an house, where the woman hath rule over the man? But these that we speak of are born neither of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.
    BEDE. The carnal birth of men derives its origin from the embrace of wedlock, but the spiritual is dispensed by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
    CHRYSOSTOM. (Hom. x. [ix.] 3) The Evangelist makes this declaration, that being taught the vileness and inferiority of our former birth, which is through blood, and the will of the flesh, and understanding the loftiness and nobleness of the second, which is through grace, we might hence receive great knowledge, worthy of being bestowed by him who begat us, and after this shew forth much zeal.

    From The Great Commentary of Cornelius a Lapide, The Holy Gospel According to St John:

    Ver. 13.—Which were born, not of bloods (Greek) nor of the will (Arabic, appetite) of the flesh, &c. S. John here gives an antithesis between human generation and Divine, and demonstrates the superiority of the latter. For (1.) he says that the former is of bloods, which is a Hebraism for blood, meaning the blood of man, produced by food.
    2. He asserts that it is of the will, i.e., the concupiscence of the flesh. This is what is elsewhere called flesh and blood, in which the will, or concupiscence of man, consists. He explains the will of the flesh to be the will of man. That is, the will, or appetite, or concupiscence of the flesh is the will, or concupiscence, for the generative act, which the carnal appetite desires.
    On the other hand, the Divine generation of the sons of God is not of blood, nor of the will and concupiscence of the flesh, but is of God, that is, of the will, predestination, and love of God. Again, of God means of the Spirit and grace of God, by which the mind of man, beforetime carnal, is regenerated and justified, and so a man becomes spiritual, just, and holy, a friend, yea, a son of God. 3. Of God, because in this regeneration of man, God not only gives him His grace and love and all other virtues, but also Himself, that a man may be truly justified, and may have the Spirit really dwelling in his soul, yea, may have the whole Trinity, and so may become Divine, a son and heir of God, and a joint-heir with Christ.

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