Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11

Author Topic: Response to Neil Obstat  (Read 25348 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Response to Neil Obstat
« on: September 05, 2018, 09:20:48 AM »
Quote
I'm rather disappointed to see someone, anyone for that matter, conflate what the followers of the great Fr. Leonard Feeney MICM, believe and teach is wholly defined by one small topic which isn't even their issue. BoD is a thing that others use to hurl accusations at them, without cause, and anyone who buys into that feeding-frenzy isn't practicing the virtue of charity.
.
Matthew, you are truly ignorant of what goes on among any of the several groups you refer to as "Feeneyites." Their signature issue is EENS and the conversion of America, which you blindly ignore to your own inadequacy of knowledge. Who else dares to say that their crusade is the conversion of America? Is that the theme of St. Dominic's Chapel, for example? If you would like it to become so, you couldn't do any better than to learn a few pointers from the parishioners, brothers and sisters of the "Feeneyites." I challenge anyone to find a group of Catholics anywhere that comprehensively teach the whole of Catholic Tradition and culture any more thoroughly than they do at the St. Benedict Centers. You have obviously never bothered to physically go to any of them to see for yourself, but instead rely on what others say about them. Their doors are always open to visitors.
.
You would be warmly encouraged to pay them a visit and see for yourself, if you really want to know the truth. Or, which is perhaps more likely, you will continue to go on in your narrow-mindedness and myopic ignorance of the reality.

1. It's not just one or two people that say that "Feeneyites deny BoD, BoB" -- it's pretty much everyone. I'll admit it's the short version, and probably a highly simplified version. I'll also admit that I'm no expert on the intricate details of Feeneyism or the controversy that surrounds the group.

2. Are you saying that Feeneyites accept the doctrines of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood?

3. Why do Feeneyites have such a bad reputation in the Trad world, to the point that everyone strongly dislikes them, they aren't welcome on most Traditional Catholic fora, they are often banned from Trad chapels, etc. Are you suggesting there's some kind of evil Illuminati-level conspiracy throughout the Trad world (across the board, in every group, even though most Trad groups completely oppose each other) to denigrate the reputation of a group of integral Catholics whose only fault is being seriously apostolic? Are you saying everyone hates you because you're holy and good, or because everyone is just jealous? Sorry, I don't buy that. You have a long way to go if you hope to convince me.

4. Yes, insofar as it's possible, St. Dominic's Chapel would like to see the conversion of America. Now personally I don't see this small Resistance chapel having much of an influence beyond a 1.5 hour driving radius, especially with no resident priest, but you brought it up...

5. I had never heard of St. Benedict Centers nor did I know what they were about.  I guess there isn't one anywhere near my hometown (same as TAN Books) nor my current stomping grounds (San Antonio area). And if there is, I can only conclude they must be doing a lousy job of putting themselves out there, being apostolic, garnering good publicity, etc.

6. If the nearest St. Benedict Center is more than 45 min. away, I certainly won't be visiting. Not from any apathy towards the truth, but because my duties of state don't allow it. Sorry.

7. You should be grateful that CathInfo is the ONE Traditional Catholic forum (with a membership greater than 50) that allows Feeneyites to join or speak at all. I'm not exaggerating here. Most forums exclude Feeneyites in their official rules/charter. Yes, I place the Feeneyite group/controversy in a ghetto so as not to annoy the rest of the membership, but if there is indeed a global conspiracy to slander the group as you claim, then I am doing more than 99.9% of people to help rectify that. I am giving you a platform to defend yourselves and make your case -- to put the "truth" out there, if indeed the truth is different than the common belief about Feeneyites.

I'm not afraid of the Truth.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Response to Neil Obstat
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2018, 10:53:46 AM »
BoD is not the central issue for most Feeneyites; it's tangential and of much less importance than the core ecclesiological issues.  It's the Dimondites who have given BoD such prominence.  Father Feeney originally only addressed the subject of EENS and of Tridentine (Catholic) ecclesiology ... and only later did BoD become an issue.  Even to the end, though, Father spoke of his position as a mere personal opinion that he could easily drop if the Church were to officially condemn it.  In addition, Father Feeney had a nuanced position.  He did not deny justification by BoD, but distinguished between justification and salvation (a very real distinction that even Trent taught, in so far as final perseverence is a special grace distinct from justification itself).  In the end, most true Feeneyites care very little about BoD.  They actually DO believe in a BoD (per your question), it's just that for them it justifies but does not save.

As for why they're despised, I don't think it's primarily personal.  I think that people despise the POSITION they have taken.  Sure, there are a few extremely bitter ones, but I have not seen that with straight Feeneyites ... but rather with the Dimondites.

From the outside you may not acknowledge the difference between Feeneyites and Dimondites, but they're real.  From the outside, people would be inclined to lump Traditional Catholics together, failing to distinguish between, say, the SSPX and the dogmatic sedevacantists ... and then smearing the entire group of Traditionalists with attacks that only apply to the dogmatic sedevacantists.  Similarly, there are very real differences between straight BoDers (considering it an opinion) vs. the dogmatic BoDers (e.g. Dimondites).

So it's a combination of the unpopularity of their position and the black eyes they get from being lumped in with the Dimondites.  They often get banned from forums simply because the moderator has concluded that Feeneyism is heresy.
Logged

Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Response to Neil Obstat
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2018, 11:12:30 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on September 05, 2018, 10:53:46 AM
So it's a combination of the unpopularity of their position and the black eyes they get from being lumped in with the Dimondites.  They often get banned from forums simply because the moderator has concluded that Feeneyism is heresy.

Oh I've been told this by several CathInfo members -- intelligent men, too. If what you say is true, then it's a good thing I don't ban first and ask questions later, like so many other forum owners.

See, a person like myself never has to say he's sorry. When you are prudent and never go farther than you have PROOF for, you never make a mistake and have to publicly apologize or backpedal.

Unlike more hot-headed individuals, you don't see people like me having to place in their signature, "Please ignore all my posts before 2012 and pray for me. I was over zealous..." like Raoul76 or, "I apologize for anything I've written against the Catholic Faith" like another CI member.

I think I'll stick with my existing solution -- allow the "Feeneyite" (for lack of a better term) subforum to continue to exist, keeping all such discussion in there. For some topics, people are divided between "I can't discuss it enough" and "why are we bringing this up more often than once per year?"  So the only way to reconcile that is to keep all discussion in one place, so most people can happily ignore it, while others can get their fill of discussion. It's the only way.

You can't deny that Feeneyites are controversial, and some people want to dive head-first into discussion of that controversy.
Logged

Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Response to Neil Obstat
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2018, 11:13:52 AM »
Two of my favorite Priests who had apostolic zeal for the conversion of America (and who each made many converts!) really preached EENS in a wonderful, holy, frank way. Without arguments or attenuation, and without denying Baptism of Desire. They were 19th century Priests and had burning love for God and neighbor, and a deep desire for all men and women to become Catholic Christians and be saved. I think we can all learn a lot from such Apostolic men whose works bear witness of them. Let's see how they preached!

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm

Quote

Q. Is it, then, the will of God that all men should be Catholics?
A. Yes; because it is only in the Roman Catholic Church that they can learn the will of God; that is, the full doctrine of Jesus Christ, which alone can save them.
Q. Did Jesus Christ Himself assure us most solemnly, and in plain words, that no one can be saved out of the Roman Catholic Church?
A. He did, when He said to His Apostles: "Go and teach all nations, and teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. He that believeth not all these things shall be condemned ...

Q. But is it not a very uncharitable doctrine to say that none can be saved out of the Church?
A. On the contrary, it is a very great act of charity to assert this doctrine most emphatically.
Q. Why?
A. Because Jesus Christ Himself and His apostles have taught it in very plain language ...

Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance ...

Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
https://www.olrl.org/apologetics/churchbible.shtml

Quote from: Fr. Arnold Damen, One True Church

Dearly Beloved Christians – When Our Divine Savior sent His Apostles and His Disciples throughout the whole universe to preach the Gospel to every creature, He laid down the conditions of salvation thus: "He that believeth and is Baptized," said the Son of the Living God, "shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned." (Mark 16:16). Here, then, Our Blessed Lord laid down the two conditions of salvation: Faith and Baptism. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be condemned – or is damned. Hence, then, two conditions of salvation: Faith and Baptism. I will speak this evening on the condition of Faith.
We must have Faith in order to be saved, and we must have Divine Faith, not human faith. Human faith will not save a man, but only Divine Faith. What is Divine Faith? It is to believe, upon the authority of God, all the Truths that God has revealed; that is Divine Faith. To believe all that God has taught upon the authority of God, and to believe without doubting, without hesitating; for the moment you commence to doubt or hesitate; that moment you commence to distrust the authority of God, and, therefore, insult God by doubting His Word. Divine Faith, therefore, is to believe without doubting, without hesitating. Human faith is when we believe a thing upon the authority of men – on human authority. That is human Faith. But Divine Faith is to believe without hesitating, whatsoever God has revealed upon the authority of God, upon the Word of God ... "Well, yes," says my Protestant friend "I guess that is the right Faith. To believe that Jesus is the Son of the Living God we must believe all that Christ has taught."

We Catholics say the same, and here we agree again. Christ, then, we must believe, and that is the true FAith; we must believe all that Christ has taught,that God has revealed, and without that Faith there is no salvation, without that Faith there is no hope of Heaven, without that Faith there is eternal damnation! We have the words of Christ for it. "He that believeth not shall be condemned," says Christ ...

Has God given us such means? "Yes," say my Protestant friends, "He has." And so says the Catholic: God has given us such a means. What is the means God has given us whereby we shall learn the Truth that God has revealed? "The Bible," says my Protestant friends, "the Bible, the whole of the Bible, and nothing but the Bible." But we Catholics say, "No; not the Bible and its private interpretation, but the Church God."

I will prove the facts, and I defy all my separated brethren, and all the preachers into the bargain, to disprove what I will say tonight. I say, then, it is not the private interpretation of the Bible that has been appointed by God to be the teacher of man, but the Church of the living God.

For, my dear people, if God had intended that man should learn His religion from a book – the Bible – surely God would have given that book to man; Christ would have given that book to man. Did He do it? He did not. Christ sent His Apostles throughout the whole universe and said: "Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Response to Neil Obstat
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2018, 11:17:26 AM »
I think that one could convincingly argue that Dimondism is schismatic.  In corresponding directly with one of them, I told him I considered it schismatic to declare outside the Church anyone who believes in BoD.  In response, I was quite vigorously anathematized.  So I was a heretic merely for thinking that BoD is not heresy.

Now to say that rejecting BoD is heresy, that is held by some theologians (e.g. St. Alphonsus) ... but it's the minority theological opinion.  Some theologians also held that the rejection of canonizations being infallible is heresy ... and that's currently a popular opinion among R&R.

Finally, the true Feeneyite position of a distinction between justification and salvation ... that's an opinion that's never been condemned, so there's little ground for saying that it cannot be held freely.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11
« previous next »