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Author Topic: Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written  (Read 15506 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
« Reply #165 on: March 20, 2014, 02:03:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_errors_of_feeneyites.htm

    Quote
    Why not then believe the dogma "outside the Church there is no salvation" "...with the same sense and the same understanding - in eodem sensu eademque sententia"[3] - as the whole Catholic Church has taught it from the beginning, that is, including the "three baptisms"? Fr. Leonard Feeney and his followers give a new meaning, a new interpretation, to this dogma.

    This traditional interpretation of this dogma, including the "three baptisms," is that of St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. Fulgentius, St. Bernard, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Peter Canisius, St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Pope Innocent II, Pope Innocent III, the Council of Trent, Pope Pius IX, Pope St. Pius X, etc., and unanimously all theologians (prior to the modernists). St. Alphonsus says: "It is de fide [that is, it belongs to the Catholic Faith - Ed.] that there are some men saved also by the baptism of the Spirit."[4]

    The traditional interpretation of "Outside the Church there is no salvation," was approved by the Council of Florence (1438-1445). The Council Fathers present made theirs the doctrine of St. Thomas on baptism of desire, saying that for children one ought not to wait 40 or 80 days for their instruction, because for them there was "no other remedy."[5] This expression is taken directly from St. Thomas (Summa Theologica, IIIa, Q.68, A. 3) and it refers explicitly to baptism of desire (ST, IIIa, Q.68, A.2). Despite the fact that the Council of Florence espoused the doctrine of St. Thomas Aquinas, it is astonishing to see Feeneyites opposing this council to St. Thomas!



    Anyone wonder why the SSPX wants to conciliarize itself? Read above and wonder no more.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #166 on: March 20, 2014, 02:15:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    To All BODers,

    The Saint Benedict Center is in full communion with Rome and the local diocese. The Church has not declared BOD in any shape or form a dogma, nor has it declared heretics anyone or any saint, doctor or priest who taught teach John 3:15 as it is written, including all the Saint Benedict centers .

    And yet, you believe that anyone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be Catholic, baptized, nor belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity!

    Your belief is oppose to the clear DOGMA of Florence and the 1600 year old Athanasian creed.

    It does not phase you one iota that not one Doctor, Father, Saint, or Council taught your salvation without explicit belief Incarnation and the Trinity, nor explicit desire to be baptized or Catholic!

    DOGMA:

     
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning. Moreover, not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in Christ and the real God, the Holy Trinity.



    So you are in communion with heretics? Isn't "full communion" a post V2 term?

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #167 on: March 20, 2014, 03:29:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    So you are in communion with heretics? Isn't "full communion" a post V2 term?


    Yes, a term that derives from YOUR ecclesiology, SJB.

    Offline SJB

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #168 on: March 20, 2014, 04:01:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: SJB
    So you are in communion with heretics? Isn't "full communion" a post V2 term?


    Yes, a term that derives from YOUR ecclesiology, SJB.


    Funny that only the SBC students (you included) use the term. Come to think of it, you idiots are also the ones who quote the modernist theologians too.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #169 on: March 23, 2014, 01:34:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: bowler
    To All BODers,

    The Saint Benedict Center is in full communion with Rome and the local diocese. The Church has not declared BOD in any shape or form a dogma, nor has it declared heretics anyone or any saint, doctor or priest who taught teach John 3:15 as it is written, including all the Saint Benedict centers .

    And yet, you believe that anyone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be Catholic, baptized, nor belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity!

    Your belief is opposed to the clear DOGMA of Florence and the 1600 year old Athanasian creed.

    It does not phase you one iota that not one Doctor, Father, Saint, or Council taught your salvation without explicit belief Incarnation and the Trinity, nor explicit desire to be baptized or Catholic!


    DOGMA:

     
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning. Moreover, not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in Christ and the real God, the Holy Trinity.



    So you are in communion with heretics? Isn't "full communion" a post V2 term?


    SJB once again misses the elephant in the room!


    Offline SJB

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #170 on: March 24, 2014, 09:48:51 AM »
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  • So you are in communion with heretics? Isn't "full communion" a post V2 term?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #171 on: April 02, 2014, 06:23:31 PM »
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  • The key is bad will, BODers just can't accept ALL the dogmas on EENS and baptism as it is written, just like a disciples that walked away from our Lord when he said they had to eat Him. They say "This saying is too hard"

    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

    Even the catechumen are not part of the faithful, let alone what the BODers believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or mad a Catholic, and they have no belief in Christ and the Trinity.

     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

    Offline bowler

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    Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
    « Reply #172 on: April 02, 2014, 06:39:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    The key is bad will, BODers just can't accept ALL the dogmas on EENS and baptism as it is written, just like a disciples that walked away from our Lord when he said they had to eat Him. They say "This saying is too hard"

    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

    Even the catechumen are not part of the faithful, let alone what the BODers believe that anyone can be saved even if they have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or mad a Catholic, and they have no belief in Christ and the Trinity.

     Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:  “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.  And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5].  The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”



    Because there are no dogmatic decrees on even baptism of blood, let alone their real belief in salvation by implicit faith in Christ,  BODers are forced to rely on periphery  quotes and writings of post Renaissance theologians. There is no doubt that after the definition of Papal infallibility at the First Vatican Council in 1870 there is much more clarity about which docuмents are infallible and which are not. Saints, Doctors and theologians who lived  before 1870 did not necessarily have this degree of clarity about what constitutes a dogmatic decree, this caused many of them  to lessen the distinction, in certain cases, between the infallible decrees of popes and the  fallible teaching of theologians. It caused them to not look literally at what  the dogma actually declares, but rather at what they thought the dogma might mean in light of the opinion of popular theologians of the time.  Catholics who live today can say that they understand more about Papal Infallibility  and dogmatic decrees than the theologians and doctors in the middle ages all the way down to the end of the 19th century and that  they possess an advantage in evaluating this issue not only because they live after the  definition of Papal Infallibility, but also because they can review the entire history of  papal pronouncements of the Church on this issue and see the harmony among them  on the absolute necessity of water baptism.

    BODers, because they seek teachers according to their own desires, have developed an edifice built on scattered quotes of those theologians who thought that a dogmatic decree was just another opinion to be improved upon. Hence a BODer read a clear dogmatic decree like this:

    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”


    and conclude that there is:

    Salvation for anyone even if they have no explicit desire to be baptized, martyred, or to be a Catholic, and have no explicit belief in Christ.