[Tradycja]

I was wondering if everyone could answer this question with a simple YES or NO answer (as anything else is from the devil).  


Does one need to believe in Jesus to be saved?

[Tradycja]

YES

[Roman Catholic]

anything else is from the devil

Is it from the devil to ask you to please tell us who decreed that anything else that gets posted in answer to your question is from the devil?

[Tradycja]

But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.  Matthew 5:37


I am not going to comment on anyone's answer nor get into BOD or BOB or any such debate, it just would be interesting to see what everyone's response will be.  We are just talking about belief in Christ here.  

   Can you answer yes or no?  

[Roman Catholic]

But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.  Matthew 5:37


I am not going to comment on anyone's answer nor get into BOD or BOB or any such debate, it just would be interesting to see what everyone's response will be.  We are just talking about belief in Christ here.  

   Can you answer yes or no?  

Why did I know you would supply that quote?  

Your mis-application of it is of your own making though.

Have you ever read a commentary on that passage by a Catholic authority? Regardless, you know that some answers require more than a yes or no.

Is it from the devil to ask you to please tell us who decreed that anything else that gets posted in answer to your question is from the devil?

PS. Have you stopped beating up old ladies?....yes or no.  :wink:

[Tradycja]

Ok, do you want me to edit out the "from the devil" part and then ask the question again?   Then will you be able to answer?  

[Roman Catholic]

Ok, do you want me to edit out the "from the devil" part and then ask the question again?   Then will you be able to answer?  

I took issue with the presumptous attempt at a decree that if we did not answer your way it would be from the devil. And I can't see why people can't elaborate in their reply if they want to?

But I never said I was unable to answer.. did I? -- Feel free to anwer yes, no, or to elaborate if you wish.  :wink:

[MyrnaM]

Yes, I also believe God can reveal His truths to any atheist, pagan or other such false beliefs, at the last moments of their life.  

Unlike the Feeny group who put God in a box, and limit His Almighty power.  

[St Jude Thaddeus]

Does one need to believe in Jesus to be saved?

YES


 

Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole.

[11] This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved

http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=4&l=12&f=s#x

OK, now somebody come and start twisting this around to mean other than what it plainly says.

I am NOT against BOD and BOB. In both of those cases, the recipient clearly believes in the Son of God and wishes to be united with Him.

Any other possibility, i.e. pious Muslims, good-hearted atheists, etc. would have to be so remote and so exceptional as to not merit any serious comment.

Missionaries of the past believed they were saving souls by bringing them into the Catholic Church. They believed that unless they, the missionaries, risked life and limb bringing the Church to those people, that those people would not have eternal life. All of this arguing over the "implicit desire" of some Hindu is exactly the kind of mushy feel-good "let's fit in with all the other Americans" nonsense from the 1940's and 50's that led directly to the Vatican II debacle and the collapse of authority in the Church.

[St Jude Thaddeus]

Yes, I also believe God can reveal His truths to any atheist, pagan or other such false beliefs, at the last moments of their life.  

Unlike the Feeny group who put God in a box, and limit His Almighty power.  

No one here has denied that God is all-powerful, or that if He wanted to, He could simply snap His Fingers and teleport all of us to His Heavenly Abode.

The question here is not about "limiting" God's power. It's about believing God's promises to His Faithful.

Cases in the past where a Saint mentioned "death bed conversions" were cases where the dying man or woman was already a baptized Catholic but had fallen into unrepentant sin or disbelief. A few cases of baptized Protestants who towards the end accepted the Holy Church are also mentioned. There is absolutely no mention of people who were totally ignorant of the Church, of the Trinity, of Jesus, and even of God, who were given special graces in the last moments of their lives and were thus saved: NOT because God couldn't do it, but because that would make a mockery out of His Church and all that She has commanded Her Faithful to do in the past.

Just because something was taught in the 40's and 50's here in America or in Holland or Germany does not make it de fide.  The whole "Greatest Generation" and their spoiled rotten baby-boomer kids are what got us into this mess to begin with, what with their indifferentism and urge for acceptance into American society at all costs. President Kennedy's shameful speech to that Baptist Convention in Houston in 1960 is a good example.

[MyrnaM]

Quote:
Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole.

[11] This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. [12] Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved


http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=4&l=12&f=s#x

Nor is anyone denying your post above.

Except for the Feenyities who deny the power of Almighty God to convert and give His grace to whomever He desires, when He desires and how He desires.  
The Feenyities place their so-called enlightment above God and are drifting outside the Church; the Pope Eugene quote that they love to quote is now meant for them.  

[LM]

Yes, I also believe God can reveal His truths to any atheist, pagan or other such false beliefs, at the last moments of their life.  

Unlike the Feeny group who put God in a box, and limit His Almighty power.  

No one here has denied that God is all-powerful, or that if He wanted to, He could simply snap His Fingers and teleport all of us to His Heavenly Abode.

The question here is not about "limiting" God's power. It's about believing God's promises to His Faithful.

Cases in the past where a Saint mentioned "death bed conversions" were cases where the dying man or woman was already a baptized Catholic but had fallen into unrepentant sin or disbelief. A few cases of baptized Protestants who towards the end accepted the Holy Church are also mentioned. There is absolutely no mention of people who were totally ignorant of the Church, of the Trinity, of Jesus, and even of God, who were given special graces in the last moments of their lives and were thus saved: NOT because God couldn't do it, but because that would make a mockery out of His Church and all that She has commanded Her Faithful to do in the past.

Just because something was taught in the 40's and 50's here in America or in Holland or Germany does not make it de fide.  The whole "Greatest Generation" and their spoiled rotten baby-boomer kids are what got us into this mess to begin with, what with their indifferentism and urge for acceptance into American society at all costs. President Kennedy's shameful speech to that Baptist Convention in Houston in 1960 is a good example.

I must say St Jude Thaddeus, your post here, and your prior one,  hit the nail on the head.

[gladius_veritatis]

The whole "Greatest Generation" and their spoiled rotten baby-boomer kids are what got us into this mess to begin with, what with their indifferentism and urge for acceptance into American society at all costs.

None of which affected St. Thomas or St. Alphonsus, just to name two men whose teachings destroy the 'strict-EENS' nonsense (which is merely a reaction to the errors of this time).

Yes, this is a time of excess.  We will not find the right road again by going to the other extreme.

[St Jude Thaddeus]

Except for the Feenyities who deny the power of Almighty God to convert and give His grace to whomever He desires, when He desires and how He desires.  

Anyone who denies that God has that power, does not believe in an Almighty God. In that case, yes, they would be limiting (in their own minds) God's power.

[St Jude Thaddeus]

Yes, this is a time of excess.  We will not find the right road again by going to the other extreme.

Agreed.

Did Sts. Thomas and Alphonsus ever have to confront Universal Salvationists? Or Indifferentists?

At least in the days of St. Thomas, books were hand-printed and not widely read, so he would have assumed a certain level of intellect and orthodoxy in his readership. He probably didn't imagine that his words could be twisted around by modernists to mean that practically everyone was going to Heaven. Or by modern Americans trying to avoid confrontation at all costs with their non-Catholic friends, family members, and neighbors.