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Author Topic: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'  (Read 3703 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2017, 11:36:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:27:51 AM
    It does not pin us in an impossible corner. Nowhere does is it Dogmatically taught that the people who were killed because of their professing Christianity before Baptism are saved. One must profess their belief and trust in Divine Providence. Leave everything up to His Holy Will.
    Those who teach no salvation apart from water are indeed pinned in an impossible corner when confronted with martyrdom before baptism.  They are forced to either be damned or deny Christ.  This cannot be reasonably denied.

    You pit the Church against the Church as if it was a dog chasing its tail.  Acting as if the solemn magisterium infallibly teaches "conservative" truth and the UOM infallibly teaches liberal error.  This is not the case and that should be obvious.  

    You do not trust the Church official liturgy which teaches these Saints were martyred and not baptized.  

    You do not trust the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes.  

    There is no salvation outside the Church. Non-members can be saved within the Church.  

    I do pray that you gain the intellectual ability or honesty to grasp and accept this fact.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #31 on: August 23, 2017, 11:40:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:30:28 AM
    I understand it. The Dogma is NOT "No salvation by false religions". It is "No Salvation Outside the Church". If they are IN a false religion, they are NOT IN the true religion. I guess I don't understand the Dogma how you and the V2 sect understands it.
    I don't understand it as Father Feeney and the Dimonds understand it.

    You don't understand it how the theologians, Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Popes understand it. Nor how all Catholics who trust the aforementioned authorities understand it.  

    One who has supernatural faith and perfect charity is within the Church by desire i.e. shares in her inner bonds of unity (sanctifying grace) as Bellarmine puts it.  That is the most important bond.  As one can partake in her outer bonds of unity (baptized, profess the faith, subject to legitimate ecclesiastical authority) and be damned.  

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #32 on: August 23, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:46:25 AM
    So what. That's not what the Dogma says.
    Are we going by you (no salvation apart from water) or the theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes? (a non-member can be saved within the Church by desire).
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #33 on: August 23, 2017, 11:55:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:53:34 AM
    No we're not. We are forced to accept that our faults have led us to this point where we only just recently accepted the graces of God to believe His Revelation and act on it. If this is enough, then our Lord will send what is necessary for the reception of the Sacrament. If not, then we accept the fact that it was our own fault that we had not heretofore been Baptized. Just because we may be damned does not mean it is God's fault.
    When baptism is impossible Our Lord can cleanse the soul without the use of water.  Do you deny this?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #34 on: August 23, 2017, 11:56:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:54:17 AM
    I understand it. The Dogma is NOT "No salvation by false religions". It is "No Salvation Outside the Church". If they are IN a false religion, they are NOT IN the true religion. I guess I don't understand the Dogma how you and the V2 sect understands it.
    I don't understand it as Father Feeney and the Dimonds understand it.

    You don't understand it how the theologians, Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Popes understand it. Nor how all Catholics who trust the aforementioned authorities understand it.  

    One who has supernatural faith and perfect charity is within the Church by desire i.e. shares in her inner bonds of unity (sanctifying grace) as Bellarmine puts it.  That is the most important bond.  As one can partake in her outer bonds of unity (baptized, profess the faith, subject to legitimate ecclesiastical authority) and be damned.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #35 on: August 23, 2017, 12:03:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:46:25 AM
    So what. That's not what the Dogma says.

    Evidently, Archbishop Lefebvre's interpretation of Dogma was different from yours. I'm gonna go with the Archbishop's view of the situation.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #36 on: August 23, 2017, 12:04:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 23, 2017, 12:03:03 PM
    Evidently, Archbishop Lefebvre's interpretation of Dogma was different from yours. I'm gonna go with the Archbishop's view of the situation.
    That truly is a good idea.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #37 on: August 23, 2017, 12:17:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 12:10:48 PM
    Our Lord commands us to be Baptized. Our Lord's Commands cannot be impossible for some to obey. So according to these truths, yes I deny your assertion. Baptism imparts an indelible mark on the soul. Desiring Baptism does not, or in your case, implicitly desiring Baptism does not. Whether He can or can't is besides the point. I don't think anyone would argue that He can't. It's whether He does. We know that He does not because those who are not reborn of "water and the spirit" will not go to Heaven.
    You avoid answering the question.  And distinguishing between an intrinsic necessity of means and a relative necessity of means.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 12:19:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 12:13:34 PM
    The Dogma says there is no salvation outside the Church; Lefebvre says there is salvation outside the Church but not by their "religions". It's not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of teaching a new doctrine. Just because he adds this little caveat is irrelevant, he word for word denies the Catholic Dogma.

    If you want to believe that he denies Dogma, that's your choice. It's quite arrogant to make yourself out to be a higher authority than the Archbishop. But that's not surprising.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #39 on: August 23, 2017, 12:29:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 12:20:36 PM
    So you're telling me that I'm not allowed to understand what someone says? That's arrogant.
    Don't forget the Theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes who actually understood Trent and the dogma.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #40 on: August 23, 2017, 12:44:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 12:33:51 PM
    You can cut it out with all these Theologians, Fathers etc... replies. These replies mean nothing to me. Until you actually believe as the Fathers and Doctors did this is a moot point. They only speculated on BOD/BOB for explicit Catechumens. If you ever come to this conclusion, then we can talk about it.
    They had the authority to teach.  They are a part of the Ecclessia Docens.  Catholics need not shun them with a crucifix and holy water as if they all err on this point when they teach with the approval and authority of the Church.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #41 on: August 23, 2017, 01:24:11 PM »
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    • Well now, hold on, maybe some Gnostic special knowers actually CAN judge internal things!

    disclaimer: NOT a refutation

    Quote from: An even Seven on August 23, 2017, 11:30:28 AM
    I understand it. The Dogma is NOT "No salvation by false religions". It is "No Salvation Outside the Church". If they are IN a false religion, they are NOT IN the true religion. I guess I don't understand the Dogma how you and the V2 sect understands it.
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #42 on: August 23, 2017, 01:30:43 PM »
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    • Quote
    intrinsic necessity of means and a relative necessity of means.
    These are terms invented by a fallible theologian. 
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #43 on: August 23, 2017, 01:41:55 PM »
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    • Theologians, as such, are "part of" the Teaching Church…
    Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 12:44:01 PM
    They had the authority to teach.  They are a part of the Ecclessia Docens.  Catholics need not shun them with a crucifix and holy water as if they all err on this point when they teach with the approval and authority of the Church.
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Question for the so-called 'Lover of Truth'
    « Reply #44 on: August 23, 2017, 01:45:13 PM »
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    "Lord, have mercy".
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