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Author Topic: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?  (Read 900 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
« on: August 18, 2021, 10:12:13 PM »
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  • I don't wish for this to become another Cushingite vs Feeneyite debate thread but I just want to have proof one must explicitly hold things that can only be made known by divine revelation to be saved to use against Cushingites. Please post what proof you have thanks.


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #1 on: August 18, 2021, 10:16:55 PM »
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  • …I just want to have proof one must explicitly hold things that can only be made known by divine revelation to be saved to use against Cushingites…

    Please elaborate in more detail. If I understand you correctly, you want proof that explicit faith in divine revelation (i.e being at least a Catechumen) is necessary for salvation?

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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #2 on: August 18, 2021, 10:31:12 PM »
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  • Please elaborate in more detail. If I understand you correctly, you want proof that explicit faith in divine revelation (i.e being at least a Catechumen) is necessary for salvation?
    Yes

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2021, 10:41:51 PM »
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  • You can't please God without the faith, and can't be justified without the faith.


    Quote from: Council of Trent, Session 6, cuм hoc tempore

    In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously. 

    And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2021, 10:47:54 PM »
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  • The faith is infused when receiving the sacrament of baptism;

    Quote from: Council of Trent, Session 6, cuм hoc tempore
    [...] infused at once, faith, hope, and charity [...]

    [...]
    This faith, Catechumens beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism;

    It's in the Rituale. The candidate is asked what he begs of the Church, and he answers: "The Faith!"

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/sixth-session.htm
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2021, 11:00:13 PM »
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  • St. Alphonsus, quoted in Fr. Michael Muller’s The Catholic Dogma: “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’ (First Command. No. 8.).”

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    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #6 on: August 18, 2021, 11:07:39 PM »
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  • St Thomas Aquinas:

    …the object of faith includes, properly and directly, that thing through which man obtains beatitude. Now the mystery of Christ's Incarnation and Passion is the way by which men obtain beatitude; for it is written (Acts 4:12): "There is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved." Therefore belief of some kind in the mystery of Christ's Incarnation was necessary at all times and for all persons, but this belief differed according to differences of times and persons. The reason of this is that before the state of sin, man believed, explicitly in Christ's Incarnation, in so far as it was intended for the consummation of glory, but not as it was intended to deliver man from sin by the Passion and Resurrection, since man had no foreknowledge of his future sin. He does, however, seem to have had foreknowledge of the Incarnation of Christ, from the fact that he said (Genesis 2:24): "Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife," of which the Apostle says (Ephesians 5:32) that "this is a great sacrament . . . in Christ and the Church," and it is incredible that the first man was ignorant about this sacrament.

    But after sin, man believed explicitly in Christ, not only as to the Incarnation, but also as to the Passion and Resurrection, whereby the human race is delivered from sin and death: for they would not, else, have foreshadowed Christ's Passion by certain sacrifices both before and after the Law, the meaning of which sacrifices was known by the learned explicitly, while the simple folk, under the veil of those sacrifices, believed them to be ordained by God in reference to Christ's coming, and thus their knowledge was covered with a veil, so to speak. And, as stated above (II-II:1:7), the nearer they were to Christ, the more distinct was their knowledge of Christ's mysteries.

    After grace had been revealed, both learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ, chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above (II-II:1:8). As to other minute points in reference to the articles of the Incarnation, men have been bound to believe them more or less explicitly according to each one's state and office.

    It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ, without faith in the Trinity, since the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh; that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Ghost; and again, that He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Wherefore just as, before Christ, the mystery of Christ was believed explicitly by the learned, but implicitly and under a veil, so to speak, by the simple, so too was it with the mystery of the Trinity. And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity: and all who are born again in Christ, have this bestowed on them by the invocation of the Trinity, according to Matthew 28:19: "Going therefore teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost."

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #7 on: August 18, 2021, 11:12:41 PM »
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  • St. Thomas, St. Alphonsus, Fr. Michael Muller, ..., why?, we got the infallible Council of Trent. Trent most strictly forbids that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared..


    The Council of Trent teaches that the Faith is infused when receiving the sacrament of baptism. The candidate beforehand asks the Church for the faith, he previously heard about. Trent also explains the preparation of the candidate. Chapter VI. The manner of Preparation. There you got:

    Quote
    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

    After the preparation, the sacrament is necessary.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #8 on: August 18, 2021, 11:25:01 PM »
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  • The highlighted text in the quote in my previous post, the text of the Council of Trent on justification, consists of quotes of

    Hebr 11,6
    Mt 9,2
    Sir 1,27
    Acts 2,38
    Mt 28,19
    1 Kings 7,3
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #9 on: August 19, 2021, 05:36:45 AM »
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  • This was the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers for the first 1500 years of Church history and is taught in the Athanasian Creed.  If this wasn’t a teaching of the OUM, then there’s no such thing.  I started a thread quoting all the Church Fathers on the subject.

    Rewarder God theory was invented out of thin air by a Franciscan and some Jesuit from emotional considerations.  It was then condemned by the Holy Office.

    Finally, in a little known passage of Vatican I, the Council teaches that supernatural faith requires an object that can only be known through Revelation, which destroys Rewarder God theory once and for all.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #10 on: August 19, 2021, 09:42:50 AM »
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  • If....If Trent approves of BOD providing justification, then you have understand it in the context of EVERYTHING ELSE that Trent taught about justification.  
    .
    Most people take the BOD phrase and ignore everything else in Trent.  They take Trent's BOD and then look to saints to explain it (many of whom lived before Trent).  This is illogical and wrong. If you want to know who BOD applies to, then you have to read ALL of what Trent taught on justification.  


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #11 on: August 19, 2021, 12:56:46 PM »
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  • This was the unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers for the first 1500 years of Church history and is taught in the Athanasian Creed.  If this wasn’t a teaching of the OUM, then there’s no such thing.  I started a thread quoting all the Church Fathers on the subject.

    Rewarder God theory was invented out of thin air by a Franciscan and some Jesuit from emotional considerations.  It was then condemned by the Holy Office.

    Finally, in a little known passage of Vatican I, the Council teaches that supernatural faith requires an object that can only be known through Revelation, which destroys Rewarder God theory once and for all.
    Could you send that part of the Vatican Council? I would also like condemnation from the Holy Office. This guy in a chat room was claiming that invincible ignorance is the constant teaching of the Church and acted like you must hold it in light of the condemnation of the errors of Du Bay and even claimed he taught one couldn't have perfect charity without baptism despite him explicitly teaching one could.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proof that one must hold to Essential Mysteries to be saved?
    « Reply #12 on: August 19, 2021, 02:34:11 PM »
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  • Could you send that part of the Vatican Council? I would also like condemnation from the Holy Office. This guy in a chat room was claiming that invincible ignorance is the constant teaching of the Church and acted like you must hold it in light of the condemnation of the errors of Du Bay and even claimed he taught one couldn't have perfect charity without baptism despite him explicitly teaching one could.

    I'll try to dig these up when I have a chance, and the Du Bay condemnations have also been extensively dealt with here on CI.  Baius meant something altogether different than how people are interpreting it.

    In any case, what does this person mean by "invincible ignorance"?  WHAT (does he claim) was taught about it?  Nobody denies invincible ignorance, that it exists.  But invincible ignorance is not salvific, but merely exculpatory.  To say otherwise is sheer Pelagianism.  In terms of being "constant teaching," the only place it's actually mentioned in the Magisterium is by Pius IX, and all he says about it is an echo of St. Thomas, that someone will not be punished for ignorance if it was invincible.  But lack of punishment does not equate to salvation, unless you're a Pelagian heretic.