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Author Topic: Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing  (Read 5380 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 02:11:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: MyrnaM

    You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His.   You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

    Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?



    We are taught *not* to depend on God's mercy when we face Him because the time to face His Justice will be at hand at that time.

    At our last Judgement, that day is called "The day of wrath, that dreadful day"

    What horror must invade the mind
    when the approaching Judge shall find
    and sift the deeds of all mankind!

    For now before the Judge severe
    all hidden things must plain appear;
    no crime can pass unpunished here.

    O what shall I, so guilty plead?
    and who for me will intercede?
    when even Saints shall comfort need?
     

    Does this sound like mercy to you -  or are we talking about the "Judge severe"? I mean, *gulp* even saints are terrified?

    I think BODers should pray - or at least recite Dies Irae daily until they understand that when we die, we face the Judge Severe who expected us, while we were alive, to accept the graces we were offered rather than reject them and to find out (seek) what the requirements for salvation were - because once we are face to face with Him, it is too late to go back.  



    Stubborn there is something wrong here,  don't you depend on His mercy before you die, before His dreadful justice?  Or are you so presumptuous to assume you don't need it.    

    God's mercy is greater than any sin.  


    You completely neglect God's Justice in your posts - which is what we all face when we meet Him.

    Now is the time to implore His mercy while we have our faculties and senses - when the unforeseen accidental death befalls us, we face Him as judge, there will never be time for the opportunity time to desire anything in our last millisecond of life since we squandered away the rest of our life rejecting the graces He wanted to give us for our salvation. At that time, we get judged for what we did and our sentence begins.

    "Even saints shall comfort need" - those words should mean something to all BODers, but looks like they mean nothing.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 02:16:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: MyrnaM

    You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His.   You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

    Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?



    We are taught *not* to depend on God's mercy when we face Him because the time to face His Justice will be at hand at that time.

    At our last Judgement, that day is called "The day of wrath, that dreadful day"

    What horror must invade the mind
    when the approaching Judge shall find
    and sift the deeds of all mankind!

    For now before the Judge severe
    all hidden things must plain appear;
    no crime can pass unpunished here.

    O what shall I, so guilty plead?
    and who for me will intercede?
    when even Saints shall comfort need?
     

    Does this sound like mercy to you -  or are we talking about the "Judge severe"? I mean, *gulp* even saints are terrified?

    I think BODers should pray - or at least recite Dies Irae daily until they understand that when we die, we face the Judge Severe who expected us, while we were alive, to accept the graces we were offered rather than reject them and to find out (seek) what the requirements for salvation were - because once we are face to face with Him, it is too late to go back.  



    Stubborn there is something wrong here,  don't you depend on His mercy before you die, before His dreadful justice?  Or are you so presumptuous to assume you don't need it.    

    God's mercy is greater than any sin.  


    You completely neglect God's Justice in your posts - which is what we all face when we meet Him.

    Now is the time to implore His mercy while we have our faculties and senses - when the unforeseen accidental death befalls us, we face Him as judge, there will never be time for the opportunity time to desire anything in our last millisecond of life since we squandered away the rest of our life rejecting the graces He wanted to give us for our salvation. At that time, we get judged for what we did and our sentence begins.

    "Even saints shall comfort need" - those words should mean something to all BODers, but looks like they mean nothing.






    It would be unjust for God to damn the innocent, merely because they inculpably did not have water poured on their head.

    At least according to the Catholic Church which is where I look for the solution to the debate.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 02:54:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    It would be unjust for God to damn the innocent, merely because they inculpably did not have water poured on their head.



    I was just thinking this as I read what Stubborn dared to say about justice.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Stubborn

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 03:08:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    It would be unjust for God to damn the innocent, merely because they inculpably did not have water poured on their head.



    I was just thinking this as I read what Stubborn dared to say about justice.  


    Who is judging them inculpable therefore innocent?
    Not me - that's what BODers do.

    The Church teaches that people are damned because of their own free will they reject the graces God offers while they are alive.

    BODers seem to judge that upon an infidels last breath or I suppose thereabouts (good luck pinning them down on "when") they suddenly have a change of heart and conscience which drives them to desire baptism  - BODers then judge that  God accepts this desire and rewards them salvation - but they are unsure if there is any purgatory or not.

    BODers also have no answer what happens should the BOD person get revived - then decides to reject the sacrament - - will the next time he's about to die 10 years later, will he be baptized by the previous desire or does he need to desire it all over again?

    In reality, God would unhesitatingly provide the sacrament to anyone who needed it and sincerely desired it - even if it meant postponing that persons death for an hour or a year or a thousand years if needed until the sacrament could be gotten. That is what the Doctrine of Divine Providence teaches.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 04:06:27 PM »
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  • Here are some excerpts from Fr. Michael Mueller's work:

    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Stubborn

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 04:22:21 PM »
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  • I would trash the book or at least blot out the error.


    Q. Why is Baptism the most necessary Sacrament?
    A. Because without it, no one can be saved.

    Q. Can the Baptism of Water ever be supplied?
    A. When it is impossible to have it, it may be supplied by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.



    So the contradiction lies in the fact that without the sacrament, no one can be saved - - -- and, without the sacrament, everyone can be saved - -  but only if it is impossible to have it.

    Since there is never a time that God finds impossible to provide for those who desire anything for their salvation - (if I am wrong, feel free to correct me) the answer supporting BOD is certainly wrong - erroneous at best.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 04:43:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I would trash the book or at least blot out the error.


    Q. Why is Baptism the most necessary Sacrament?
    A. Because without it, no one can be saved.

    Q. Can the Baptism of Water ever be supplied?
    A. When it is impossible to have it, it may be supplied by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.



    So the contradiction lies in the fact that without the sacrament, no one can be saved - - -- and, without the sacrament, everyone can be saved - -  but only if it is impossible to have it.

    Since there is never a time that God finds impossible to provide for those who desire anything for their salvation - (if I am wrong, feel free to correct me) the answer supporting BOD is certainly wrong - erroneous at best.

    Where is the book that explains it "properly." Why don't you just produce THAT book? Wait, I know why ... because IT DOESN'T EXIST.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 04:50:33 PM »
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  • Stubborn also see/reads things that aren't there like this ===> "and, without the sacrament, everyone can be saved - -  but only if it is impossible to have it.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Stubborn

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 05:16:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Stubborn
    I would trash the book or at least blot out the error.


    Q. Why is Baptism the most necessary Sacrament?
    A. Because without it, no one can be saved.

    Q. Can the Baptism of Water ever be supplied?
    A. When it is impossible to have it, it may be supplied by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.



    So the contradiction lies in the fact that without the sacrament, no one can be saved - - -- and, without the sacrament, everyone can be saved - -  but only if it is impossible to have it.

    Since there is never a time that God finds impossible to provide for those who desire anything for their salvation - (if I am wrong, feel free to correct me) the answer supporting BOD is certainly wrong - erroneous at best.

    Where is the book that explains it "properly." Why don't you just produce THAT book? Wait, I know why ... because IT DOESN'T EXIST.




    It only must not exist in your mind - here it is for you again.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/romancat.html

    But these are truths which should not be made the subject of too subtle investigation, when we recollect that he who is a searcher of majesty shall be overwhelmed by glory. We should be satisfied with the assurance and certitude which faith gives us that we have been taught these truths by God Himself, to doubt whose word is the extreme of folly and misery. He has said: Teach ye all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; and again, there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline bowler

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 05:46:10 PM »
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  • Myrna and Lover of Truth, you have acknowledge that you believe in this 20th century novelty. In doing this reject ALL of the Fathers of the Church, ALL of the saints teachings on BOD, the Athanasian creed, you deny all of that for your own belief that people who have no desire to be Catholics can still be saved.

    Everything else that you write is just a smoke screen.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #25 on: August 06, 2013, 05:52:38 PM »
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  • bower    :sleep:
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 12:10:22 AM »
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  • .Please excuse the delay, for I was interrupted four times
    today trying to post this and now, even though I might not
    be quite done with it, I have to turn it in because I have run
    out of energy with this.


    So here Fr. Mueller offers a definition of so-called baptism
    of desire that the Church has not dared to offer in, let's say,
    the Council of Trent:  


    Post

    LESSON IV.  

    BAPTISM...
    . . . .
    [penultimate Q&A]

    Q.  What is baptism of desire?
    [/size]

    [Trent does not define BoD at all, nor does Trent use the term,
    "baptism of desire,"
    even while all the relatively low-level
    pundits who profess a nebulous authority over this topic claim
    that Trent is the best source for the doctrinal basis for BoD.  
    This has been dealt with elsewhere.  Suffice it to say that Trent
    does no such thing, and to claim that it does is merely a
    theological opinion.]

    A.  An earnest wish to receive baptism, or to do all
    that God requires of us for our salvation, together
    with a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God.  



    This is a highly defective definition, and you would never
    see it in any definitive docuмent from the Holy See, because
    it is much too vague.  For example, this definition can be
    equally interpreted to mean any one of the following, to the
    exclusion of any one or any combination of the others, up
    to and including all of the others:  


    1)   Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism.

    This can be the entirety of the definition, according to the
    objective words of the Answer, above, because the next
    word is "or," which means either what comes before, OR
    what comes after the "or," (as "or" is an exclusive operator
    in the English language), and therefore, this "1)..."  only
    makes use of what came before.  By any reasonable
    language standard, that would be just fine with this definition,
    as it is written in the quoted text of Fr. Mueller.  

    This is to say that "An earnest wish to receive baptism" is just
    as accurate for a complete answer as is "An earnest wish to
    do all that God requires of us for our salvation, together with
    a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God,"
    which
    constitutes the remainder of the Answer, and an exclusive
    alternative, as the Answer is here written.  There are more
    distinctions to be made in this complex second alternative
    version, as shown below.

    Returning to this first example, "1)  Baptism of desire is an
    earnest wish to receive baptism"
    :

    But merely an earnest wish to receive baptism could not
    possibly suffice without any wish to do the will of God and/or
    to know and believe the truth, since it is the will of God for
    all men to come to the knowledge of the truth;  and a mere
    desire to receive baptism (whatever that means) makes no
    mention of the faith and/or knowledge of the truth, and so
    does not necessarily comply with the will of God.  It is this
    case of the subject in question having no intention to
    cooperate with God's will and therefore grace, but only to
    receive baptism, that makes for a grave fault in any efficacy
    that may have otherwise endured beyond the initial graces of
    the sacrament (BoD is not a sacrament) to the effect of
    having prevented the falling away from the Faith at a later
    time.

    This is not to say it CANNOT comply - but that is up to God
    to judge and not up to us to judge.  This is not something
    that we should even be concerned with, because we cannot
    know the subjective disposition of anyone's heart, let alone
    the heart of a man who is dying without water baptism.

    In any case, the desire to receive Baptism is insufficient on
    its face even for the reception of the sacrament, for it is not
    the desire for the sacrament which is most important but
    the desire for the supernatural virtue of Faith that is
    paramount.  This is why the Church always asks the
    catechumen, "What do you desire?" -and his answer is to
    properly be "Faith." -not "Baptism."  Any catechumen who
    persists in answering "Baptism," even though he may think
    it some kind of joke or game or frivolity, might, at the
    discretion of the minister, be informed that his baptism has
    been postponed.  And this is not to be "mean" or "a nathty
    sthtickler" (as +W may say), but to make sure that the
    sacrament is not being abused.  It could be a sign from God
    that this catechumen is not ready for Baptism, or perhaps
    he NEVER will be!  

    To think that is impossible is to judge the knowledge of God.
    Do you suppose that God would not know when such a one
    exists and is attempting to be baptized, perhaps with an
    ulterior motive, such as to gain entry into some group or
    club or party that requires a Baptismal record?


    2)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to do all that God
    requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect
    contrition.  


    If this is what the dying person has, perfect contrition (which
    is next to impossible for even baptized Catholics to attain
    unless they have either tremendous graces or else have spent
    a lifetime of prayer and virtuous living directed at achieving
    this most precious of goals), and an earnest wish to do all
    that God requires of us for our salvation (a thing which is
    easier believed possible given the former, perfect contrition),
    then it would seem that the dying person has everything he
    needs to evoke the most forthright act of God's providence
    possible, and who are we to say this cannot happen?

    But without first the former (perfect contrition), the latter
    (an earnest wish to do all God reqires of us for our salvation)
    has a miniscule chance of happening in the heart of a man
    dying with all the snares and assaults of the devil that
    invariably befall such a one at that time -- that is, unless the
    person receives som unusual special grace such as that
    promised by the Sacred Heart promises to St. Margaret Mary.  
    But how could an unbaptized person be familiar with and have
    practiced such as the 9 First Saturdays Devotion without ever
    being baptized??  How does one Communicate worthily
    (under the normal conditions) on 9 consecutive months
    without ever having fulfilled the very first normal condition,
    which is water baptism????  


    3)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive a
    perfect love of God.  
     

    -- A rather unlikely meaning, but nonetheless one that cannot
    be objectively denied by the words of this answer, as written.

    If this definition is true, it would have to be in any individual
    case a tremendous miracle of grace, for one to die without
    water baptism but only an earnest wish to receive a perfect
    love of God.  Far be it from us to pass judgment on that!  But
    as we have said so often, this is not a matter for us to judge,
    but it is in the domain of God alone, who knows all such things.


    4)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to do all that God
    requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect love
    of God.


    This is the one that others, above, have addressed by saying
    that it is in the infinite providence of God to supply all that
    God requires of us that acts upon us, such as water baptism.
    For if God requires it (and according to the Council of Trent,
    He does so require it) AND we truly wish to have it, THEN
    God is wholly capable of supplying it, by whatever means He
    chooses, be it miraculously, such as transporting a priest like
    Padre Pio or St. Anthony of Padua, or St. Thomas the Apostle,
    or the Cure d'Ars, all of whom are said to have been seen in
    more than one location at the same time -- therefore, they were
    given the power to appear to others far away to do whatever
    God wanted them to do, such as baptize.  In one case in
    particular, St. Anthony raised a corpse from the dead just to
    give him Holy Baptism, then the very fortunate man lay down
    again, and his flesh returned to the former state of corruption
    in death from whence it had come for a few minutes in order
    to receive the life-giving waters.  What would be the point of
    such a miracle if water baptism were not necessary, as Trent
    says, and if the dead man's desire alone was sufficient?  For
    the witnesses of this prodigy were thereby taught the value
    of the sacrament and they were NOT taught the sufficiency of
    NOT having any sacrament, since so-called baptism of desire
    is not a sacrament.  If you doubt that then you haven't bothered
    to ask any priest about it.  Even Modernist priests admit that
    so-called baptism of desire is not a sacrament.


    5)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism,
    together with a perfect contrition.  


    If that were the case, it would be great!  How many Catholics
    would long for the ability to achieve a perfectly contrite heart!
    And what could be more pure than this combined with an
    earnest wish to receive holy Baptism?  But I have to say that
    this term, BoD, has been all too often applied when there was
    no such evidence of the subject having achieved this rare and
    wonderful state of soul.  In any case, it is a judgment for God
    to make and not us.


    6)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism,
    together with a perfect love of God.  


    The same goes for the rare and wonderful state of having
    achieved a perfect love of God.  This is the object of all our
    desires as Catholics.  And would that it is true that there are
    many who have achieved this.  

    However, in these last two cases (5 & 6), how often would it
    be that one who so desires and perfectly loves God and/or has
    achieved a perfect contrition, would then later slip back into a
    less admirable state, and perhaps even one of sin, if he
    survives?  But most of all, if such a one does not survive, who
    is to say that God, Who knows all things, and for Whose power
    and providence there is no limit, would not provide a minister
    to baptize him before his death?



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 12:34:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .Please excuse the delay, for I was interrupted four times
    today trying to post this and now, even though I might not
    be quite done with it, I have to turn it in because I have run
    out of energy with this.


    So here Fr. Mueller offers a definition of so-called baptism
    of desire that the Church has not dared to offer in, let's say,
    the Council of Trent:  


    Post

    LESSON IV.  

    BAPTISM...
    . . . .
    [penultimate Q&A]

    Q.  What is baptism of desire?
    [/size]

    [Trent does not define BoD at all, nor does Trent use the term,
    "baptism of desire,"
    even while all the relatively low-level
    pundits who profess a nebulous authority over this topic claim
    that Trent is the best source for the doctrinal basis for BoD.  
    This has been dealt with elsewhere.  Suffice it to say that Trent
    does no such thing, and to claim that it does is merely a
    theological opinion.]

    A.  An earnest wish to receive baptism, or to do all
    that God requires of us for our salvation, together
    with a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God.  



    This is a highly defective definition, and you would never
    see it in any definitive docuмent from the Holy See, because
    it is much too vague.  For example, this definition can be
    equally interpreted to mean any one of the following, to the
    exclusion of any one or any combination of the others, up
    to and including all of the others:  


    1)   Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism.

    This can be the entirety of the definition, according to the
    objective words of the Answer, above, because the next
    word is "or," which means either what comes before, OR
    what comes after the "or," (as "or" is an exclusive operator
    in the English language), and therefore, this "1)..."  only
    makes use of what came before.  By any reasonable
    language standard, that would be just fine with this definition,
    as it is written in the quoted text of Fr. Mueller.  

    This is to say that "An earnest wish to receive baptism" is just
    as accurate for a complete answer as is "An earnest wish to
    do all that God requires of us for our salvation, together with
    a perfect contrition, or a perfect love of God,"
    which
    constitutes the remainder of the Answer, and an exclusive
    alternative, as the Answer is here written.  There are more
    distinctions to be made in this complex second alternative
    version, as shown below.

    Returning to this first example, "1)  Baptism of desire is an
    earnest wish to receive baptism"
    :

    But merely an earnest wish to receive baptism could not
    possibly suffice without any wish to do the will of God and/or
    to know and believe the truth, since it is the will of God for
    all men to come to the knowledge of the truth;  and a mere
    desire to receive baptism (whatever that means) makes no
    mention of the faith and/or knowledge of the truth, and so
    does not necessarily comply with the will of God.  It is this
    case of the subject in question having no intention to
    cooperate with God's will and therefore grace, but only to
    receive baptism, that makes for a grave fault in any efficacy
    that may have otherwise endured beyond the initial graces of
    the sacrament (BoD is not a sacrament) to the effect of
    having prevented the falling away from the Faith at a later
    time.

    This is not to say it CANNOT comply - but that is up to God
    to judge and not up to us to judge.  This is not something
    that we should even be concerned with, because we cannot
    know the subjective disposition of anyone's heart, let alone
    the heart of a man who is dying without water baptism.

    In any case, the desire to receive Baptism is insufficient on
    its face even for the reception of the sacrament, for it is not
    the desire for the sacrament which is most important but
    the desire for the supernatural virtue of Faith that is
    paramount.  This is why the Church always asks the
    catechumen, "What do you desire?" -and his answer is to
    properly be "Faith." -not "Baptism."  Any catechumen who
    persists in answering "Baptism," even though he may think
    it some kind of joke or game or frivolity, might, at the
    discretion of the minister, be informed that his baptism has
    been postponed.  And this is not to be "mean" or "a nathty
    sthtickler" (as +W may say), but to make sure that the
    sacrament is not being abused.  It could be a sign from God
    that this catechumen is not ready for Baptism, or perhaps
    he NEVER will be!  

    To think that is impossible is to judge the knowledge of God.
    Do you suppose that God would not know when such a one
    exists and is attempting to be baptized, perhaps with an
    ulterior motive, such as to gain entry into some group or
    club or party that requires a Baptismal record?


    2)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to do all that God
    requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect
    contrition.  


    If this is what the dying person has, perfect contrition (which
    is next to impossible for even baptized Catholics to attain
    unless they have either tremendous graces or else have spent
    a lifetime of prayer and virtuous living directed at achieving
    this most precious of goals), and an earnest wish to do all
    that God requires of us for our salvation (a thing which is
    easier believed possible given the former, perfect contrition),
    then it would seem that the dying person has everything he
    needs to evoke the most forthright act of God's providence
    possible, and who are we to say this cannot happen?

    But without first the former (perfect contrition), the latter
    (an earnest wish to do all God reqires of us for our salvation)
    has a miniscule chance of happening in the heart of a man
    dying with all the snares and assaults of the devil that
    invariably befall such a one at that time -- that is, unless the
    person receives som unusual special grace such as that
    promised by the Sacred Heart promises to St. Margaret Mary.  
    But how could an unbaptized person be familiar with and have
    practiced such as the 9 First Saturdays Devotion without ever
    being baptized??  How does one Communicate worthily
    (under the normal conditions) on 9 consecutive months
    without ever having fulfilled the very first normal condition,
    which is water baptism????  


    3)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive a
    perfect love of God.  
     

    -- A rather unlikely meaning, but nonetheless one that cannot
    be objectively denied by the words of this answer, as written.

    If this definition is true, it would have to be in any individual
    case a tremendous miracle of grace, for one to die without
    water baptism but only an earnest wish to receive a perfect
    love of God.  Far be it from us to pass judgment on that!  But
    as we have said so often, this is not a matter for us to judge,
    but it is in the domain of God alone, who knows all such things.


    4)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to do all that God
    requires of us for our salvation, together with a perfect love
    of God.


    This is the one that others, above, have addressed by saying
    that it is in the infinite providence of God to supply all that
    God requires of us that acts upon us, such as water baptism.
    For if God requires it (and according to the Council of Trent,
    He does so require it) AND we truly wish to have it, THEN
    God is wholly capable of supplying it, by whatever means He
    chooses, be it miraculously, such as transporting a priest like
    Padre Pio or St. Anthony of Padua, or St. Thomas the Apostle,
    or the Cure d'Ars, all of whom are said to have been seen in
    more than one location at the same time -- therefore, they were
    given the power to appear to others far away to do whatever
    God wanted them to do, such as baptize.  In one case in
    particular, St. Anthony raised a corpse from the dead just to
    give him Holy Baptism, then the very fortunate man lay down
    again, and his flesh returned to the former state of corruption
    in death from whence it had come for a few minutes in order
    to receive the life-giving waters.  What would be the point of
    such a miracle if water baptism were not necessary, as Trent
    says, and if the dead man's desire alone was sufficient?  For
    the witnesses of this prodigy were thereby taught the value
    of the sacrament and they were NOT taught the sufficiency of
    NOT having any sacrament, since so-called baptism of desire
    is not a sacrament.  If you doubt that then you haven't bothered
    to ask any priest about it.  Even Modernist priests admit that
    so-called baptism of desire is not a sacrament.


    5)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism,
    together with a perfect contrition.  


    If that were the case, it would be great!  How many Catholics
    would long for the ability to achieve a perfectly contrite heart!
    And what could be more pure than this combined with an
    earnest wish to receive holy Baptism?  But I have to say that
    this term, BoD, has been all too often applied when there was
    no such evidence of the subject having achieved this rare and
    wonderful state of soul.  In any case, it is a judgment for God
    to make and not us.


    6)  Baptism of desire is an earnest wish to receive baptism,
    together with a perfect love of God.  


    The same goes for the rare and wonderful state of having
    achieved a perfect love of God.  This is the object of all our
    desires as Catholics.  And would that it is true that there are
    many who have achieved this.  

    However, in these last two cases (5 & 6), how often would it
    be that one who so desires and perfectly loves God and/or has
    achieved a perfect contrition, would then later slip back into a
    less admirable state, and perhaps even one of sin, if he
    survives?  But most of all, if such a one does not survive, who
    is to say that God, Who knows all things, and for Whose power
    and providence there is no limit, would not provide a minister
    to baptize him before his death?





    And this is my exact opinion on the matter. Glad I read through the whole thing, because it confirmed what I already believed.  :rahrah:
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Cathedra

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 01:42:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Found another old book at my home library, this one is dated 1929
    The Church calls it Baptism of Desire and there are requirements.
    The point is the Church teaches it, don't you as a Catholic want to believe
    what the Church teaches.  

    [/URL][/img]


    The last paragraph that appears there is already rejecting the necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation.

    It says, "Adults who die without the knowledge of the Gospel are saved by the merits of Christ, if they die in perfect charity or are perfectly contrite for their sins. This includes the implicit desire of baptism, which is defined as "a state of mind in which a man would ardently long for Baptism, if he knew that it was necessary for salvation.""

    I wonder, how is a person who is ignorant of the Gospel, aware of what sin is? How can they possess perfect charity and perfect contrition if they supposedly don't even know of the Gospel? And how can they implicitly desire Baptism if, again, they are ignorant of the Gospel?

    Offline Cathedra

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    Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing
    « Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 01:46:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    It would be unjust for God to damn the innocent, merely because they inculpably did not have water poured on their head.

    At least according to the Catholic Church which is where I look for the solution to the debate.  


    Do you reject that those who die with the sole guilt of original sin cannot be saved?