Author Topic: Problem with BOD - 20th Century Morphing (Read 5387 times)

bowler · « **on:** August 06, 2013, 09:25:58 AM »

Here's the short and simple for those who are seeking the truth about so-called baptism of desire:

For 19 centuries of Church history, so-called baptism of desire applied to a person who explicitly desired to be a Catholic. And no catechism ever taught otherwise.

In the 20th century catechisms began teaching that someone who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, and even if the person rejected Christ and His Church, could be saved. Below are some examples.

AND that is the problem! It is a novelty, with no basis in the Fathers of the Church, nor was it ever taught by any Saint, and it is opposed to the dogmatic Athanasian Creed.

From the book Against the Heresies, by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre:

1. Page 216: “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

2.Page 217: “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

Pages 217-218: “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’ When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached.”
__________________________________________

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006: “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

bowler · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2013, 09:43:53 AM »

Now, compare the above quotes with what St. Francis Xavier taught the Japanese:

"Before their Baptism, certain Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple: that God did not appear merciful, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese people before, especially that those who had not worshipped God were doomed to everlasting Hell. They grieve over the fate of their departed children, parents, and relatives; so they ask if there is any way to free them by prayer from the eternal misery. And I am obligated to answer: there is absolutely none."
(Saint Francis Xavier )

AND honestly tell me how a person who has no desire to be a Catholic, nor wants anything to do with Christ and His Church, can be saved, when the Church teaches infallible that even someone who sheds his blood for Christ can't be saved?

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. 44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #2 on:** August 06, 2013, 10:10:27 AM »

again...

From The Catechism of Trent

"Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament. "

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2013, 10:22:55 AM »

Excellent post. Too many people seem to want the trappings of the traditional Faith and even the teachings of the Faith, but they don't want dogma to be dogma.

This is what I call the "too bad" response.

You're living in a world where lots of people claim to be christian and are not members of the Church? Too bad. The catechumen is required to have faithful assent to dogma and those who are not catechumens of the Catholic Church cannot have assent to all the dogmatic doctrines of the Church.

You imagine that a person can attain to a desire to embrace God's truth in its entirety without supernatural aid? Too bad; that's heresy. A person can learn the Name of Jesus Christ and even many true things about the Faith but NO ONE who does not explicitly desire to enter the One True Church can receive graces there from, which are necessarily sanctifying and not mere common graces.

Someone might posit that if a person were lost at sea and discovered a boat, they would be saved by getting INTO the boat.

They might also surmise that such a person could be saved after a fashion by clinging to the boat while yet remaining outside it.

Too bad. St. Peter tells us that all those who were OUTSIDE THE ARK perished, their desire to escape destruction notwithstanding. Only those who believed God through His prophet Moses and ENTERED THE ARK were saved.

Putting ancient truths aside because modern reasoning seems to admit to exceptions or newer understandings is the hallmark of modernism, the heretical fountain from which the Conciliar abomination has sprung.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2013, 10:36:03 AM »

I remember a copy of the Conciliar "St. Joseph's Baltimore Catechism" that I owned as a child.

It depicted the Ark of Noah with ropes hanging from the sides. The text described those who were not IN the Ark but rather somehow tenuously attached to it. Probably referring to the Anglican heretics or some other high-liturgy phonies.

I remember even as a boy that the Scriptures never alluded even slightly to the idea of anyone being saved by a vague attachment to the outside of the Ark.

Even as a child I knew that in means in and out means out.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2013, 10:44:18 AM »

bower, it seems you are talking about people that had no desire for truth or the Catholic faith in general.

BOD is for people who have a desire.

God judges people by the opportunity He gives them to learn and accept the Truth. Keep that in mind.

If a person who never ever even heard about where to go for truth, but because of a God given conscience that was formed correctly dies, and lived accordingly don't you think they would at the very least live for all eternity in Limbo, a place of natural happiness. Yes, I agree Limbo is not Heaven, but it is not Hell where people are tormented either.

You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His. You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?

Quote

Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple

Do you know what a scruple is?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:10:51 AM »

.

Something I don't see mentioned is the OBJECT of this "desire."

What is "baptism of desire" then, desire for baptism? If so, that's
potentially useless. What good does it do one to desire baptism
if there is no desire for the Faith? It is entirely possible for someone
to desire some trapping or incidental thing without having any
intention for the deeper meaning.

When the Church baptizes in the traditional form the first question
is "What do you desire?" Is the correct answer to that "Baptism?"
Or, is there no correct answer? Everyone gets a pass in the
Newage One World religion - unless, that is, you hold the Catholic
faith.

And it is not possible for us to know one way or the other. It is
up to God to know and it is his judgment, not ours. The proper
thing for us to do is to leave it in God's hands, and NOT to go
around proclaiming that so-and-so is saved because of some
rumored desire that he had, which may have been true and
may not have been true. But it's none of our business. We
should be dealing with objective truth not with innuendo.

The Modernists who deny the existence of hell really love this
because it provides ambivalence and capriciousness where
faith and fear of the Lord are then missing. If fear of the Lord
is the beginning of wisdom, then lack of fear of the Lord is
the beginning of folly, or foolishness.

The popular disregard for the virtue of wisdom is rampant today.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:23:44 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

bower, it seems you are talking about people that had no desire for truth or the Catholic faith in general.

BOD is for people who have a desire.

God judges people by the opportunity He gives them to learn and accept the Truth. Keep that in mind.

If a person who never ever even heard about where to go for truth, but because of a God given conscience that was formed correctly dies, and lived accordingly don't you think they would at the very least live for all eternity in Limbo, a place of natural happiness. Yes, I agree Limbo is not Heaven, but it is not Hell where people are tormented either.

You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His. You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?

Quote

Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple

Do you know what a scruple is?

It really is as simple as non-members can be saved within the Church, so long as all the other requisites are there. No one at all is saved outside the Church, but non-members, who have not been baptized with water can be saved within the Church. Easy to understand but no one wants to accept it. Is it because they want as many in Hell as possible as you suggest?

And the teaching agrees with our Feeneyite Friends that "desire" alone and or "invincible ignorance" alone does not save anyone. We agree that there is absolutely no exception that no one at all can be saved outside the Church.

But they do not want to accept that a non-member can be saved within the Church. This is something the Church has consistently, authoritatively and infallibly taught throughout the ages. I accept the teaching of the Church on her own authority. She is the mouthpiece of Christ Himself.

But the Feeneyites want "No Salvation Outside the Church" to mean "No Salvation for non-members of the Church". But the dogma means what it says not what they prefer it to mean or mistakenly believe it to mean.

Non-members can be saved within the Church. Let me interpret that statement:

Non-members can be saved within the Church.

That was about as good an interpretation as I have seen.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:41:17 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His. You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?

We are taught *not* to depend on God's mercy when we face Him because the time to face His Justice will be at hand at that time.

At our last Judgement, that day is called "The day of wrath, that dreadful day"

What horror must invade the mind
when the approaching Judge shall find
and sift the deeds of all mankind!

For now before the Judge severe
all hidden things must plain appear;
no crime can pass unpunished here.

O what shall I, so guilty plead?
and who for me will intercede?
when even Saints shall comfort need?

Does this sound like mercy to you - or are we talking about the "Judge severe"? I mean, *gulp* even saints are terrified?

I think BODers should pray - or at least recite Dies Irae daily until they understand that when we die, we face the Judge Severe who expected us, while we were alive, to accept the graces we were offered rather than reject them and to find out (seek) what the requirements for salvation were - because once we are face to face with Him, it is too late to go back.

Stubborn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:42:34 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: MyrnaM
bower, it seems you are talking about people that had no desire for truth or the Catholic faith in general.

BOD is for people who have a desire.

God judges people by the opportunity He gives them to learn and accept the Truth. Keep that in mind.

If a person who never ever even heard about where to go for truth, but because of a God given conscience that was formed correctly dies, and lived accordingly don't you think they would at the very least live for all eternity in Limbo, a place of natural happiness. Yes, I agree Limbo is not Heaven, but it is not Hell where people are tormented either.

You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His. You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?

Quote

Japanese were greatly troubled by a hateful scruple

Do you know what a scruple is?

It really is as simple as non-members can be saved within the Church, so long as all the other requisites are there. No one at all is saved outside the Church, but non-members, who have not been baptized with water can be saved within the Church. Easy to understand but no one wants to accept it. Is it because they want as many in Hell as possible as you suggest?

And the teaching agrees with our Feeneyite Friends that "desire" alone and or "invincible ignorance" alone does not save anyone. We agree that there is absolutely no exception that no one at all can be saved outside the Church.

But they do not want to accept that a non-member can be saved within the Church. This is something the Church has consistently, authoritatively and infallibly taught throughout the ages. I accept the teaching of the Church on her own authority. She is the mouthpiece of Christ Himself.

But the Feeneyites want "No Salvation Outside the Church" to mean "No Salvation for non-members of the Church". But the dogma means what it says not what they prefer it to mean or mistakenly believe it to mean.

Non-members can be saved within the Church. Let me interpret that statement:

Non-members can be saved within the Church.

That was about as good an interpretation as I have seen.

Why don't you take your Cushingite theology to the next Billy Graham crusade?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:58:03 PM »

Quote

Why don't you take your Cushingite theology to the next Billy Graham crusade?

It would be difficult to give a charitable response to that though I could give a response that would be more accurate than yours about one who would write such a thing that would not be charitable but I will avoid doing so thanks be to God.

But I will send this quote from another poor old ignorant Saint. They keep coming out of the woodwork. What is wrong with these Saints:

St. Bernard
"De Baptismo"

"What is clearer than that the will is taken for the act, when the act is excluded by necessity?"

Yo Burnie there, check with stubborn next time will ya! Yo. That was my New York accent. No disrespect intended to Saint Bernard or Stubborn. Us New Yookas are tough. "R's" Don't give me no stinking "R's".

MyrnaM · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2013, 01:48:21 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

.

What is "baptism of desire" then, desire for baptism? If so, that's
potentially useless. What good does it do one to desire baptism
if there is no desire for the Faith? It is entirely possible for someone
to desire some trapping or incidental thing without having any
intention for the deeper meaning.

Found another old book at my home library, this one is dated 1929
The Church calls it Baptism of Desire and there are requirements.
The point is the Church teaches it, don't you as a Catholic want to believe
what the Church teaches.

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It is a grave sin to omit, this teaching!

Also Vatican II, take this teaching and they sin gravely by exaggerating this truth, till it becomes a heresy. Vatican II does this with many of the Church teaching, they tend to stretch them till they are no longer true. Everyone gets into heaven without any desire for truth, the faith or the sacraments. Here the Church has taught that one must have a desire for the Faith, if you prefer that word Neil. Desire for Truth, desire for the Faith = BOD, if you die before you can actually fulfill the sacrament.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2013, 01:57:19 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

What is "baptism of desire" then, desire for baptism? If so, that's
potentially useless. What good does it do one to desire baptism
if there is no desire for the Faith? It is entirely possible for someone
to desire some trapping or incidental thing without having any
intention for the deeper meaning.

Found another old book at my home library, this one is dated 1929
The Church calls it Baptism of Desire and there are requirements.
The point is the Church teaches it, don't you as a Catholic want to believe
what the Church teaches.

[/URL][/img]

Right God and His Church does not insist on the impossible or even the unreasonable.

Many Protestants can appear to be of good will but how many are truly blind about the fact that Christ founded the Catholic Church with an invincible ignorance? Can it be reasonably expected that many of them should be aware that Christ founded the Catholic Church and that the Holy Ghost would be with it until the end of time?

And those who are truly invincibly ignorant are they of legitimate good will instead of merely apparent? Do they have perfect charity and do they die not culpable of any unrepentant mortal sin? Then can be nice and apparently good as can be and still have a culpable ignorance about the Catholic Church. In that case they do not really desire to do the will of good or they would not purposely remain in their ignorance.

Any Protestants out there that wonder about the history of the Catholic Church and Who found her and Who guides her you better look into the issue and not willfully avoid it. Or there really will be Hell to pay.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2013, 01:58:38 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: MyrnaM

You have no mercy in your heart, and you will no doubt be judged without mercy, according to what the Bible says, not my words but His. You glory in the fact that unless someone thinks exactly like you, and the Dimonds they are outside the Church.

Why are you so eager to send everyone to Hell?

We are taught *not* to depend on God's mercy when we face Him because the time to face His Justice will be at hand at that time.

At our last Judgement, that day is called "The day of wrath, that dreadful day"

What horror must invade the mind
when the approaching Judge shall find
and sift the deeds of all mankind!

For now before the Judge severe
all hidden things must plain appear;
no crime can pass unpunished here.

O what shall I, so guilty plead?
and who for me will intercede?
when even Saints shall comfort need?

Does this sound like mercy to you - or are we talking about the "Judge severe"? I mean, *gulp* even saints are terrified?

I think BODers should pray - or at least recite Dies Irae daily until they understand that when we die, we face the Judge Severe who expected us, while we were alive, to accept the graces we were offered rather than reject them and to find out (seek) what the requirements for salvation were - because once we are face to face with Him, it is too late to go back.

Stubborn there is something wrong here, don't you depend on His mercy before you die, before His dreadful justice? Or are you so presumptuous to assume you don't need it.

God's mercy is greater than any sin.

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2013, 02:04:42 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote
Why don't you take your Cushingite theology to the next Billy Graham crusade?

It would be difficult to give a charitable response to that though I could give a response that would be more accurate than yours about one who would write such a thing that would not be charitable but I will avoid doing so thanks be to God.

But I will send this quote from another poor old ignorant Saint. They keep coming out of the woodwork. What is wrong with these Saints:

St. Bernard
"De Baptismo"

"What is clearer than that the will is taken for the act, when the act is excluded by necessity?"

Yo Burnie there, check with stubborn next time will ya! Yo. That was my New York accent. No disrespect intended to Saint Bernard or Stubborn. Us New Yookas are tough. "R's" Don't give me no stinking "R's".

You seem to be unable to grasp that there is nothing impossible to God - nor is there any accident or death unforeseen to God - don't you realize that it is God who chooses when we are removed from this world - as it is God who decided we needed to be cleansed of Original sin by the Sacrament of Baptism or else we cannot enter the kingdom of God - regardless of what any writer, be they saint or theologian, writes since the necessity of the sacrament has been defined infallibly.

Do you deem it an impossibility or just a huge inconvenience for God to Provide the Sacrament to everyone and anyone who sincerely desires it?