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Author Topic: Priests who believe EENS  (Read 12253 times)

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Offline Joe Cupertino

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2022, 02:57:30 PM »
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    • I agree, Jurgens was a modernist, and shouldn't be used as an authority.  That makes it all the more odd that the Dimonds would quote him as one.  Jurgens actually goes on in the next two paragraphs of that footnote to call Limbo "generous but questionable", and then he applies BOD to infants, with "a desire supplied by the desire of the Church herself."  Whatever one may think of BOD, it was always denied to infants in traditional teachings, barring some rare source.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #121 on: January 26, 2022, 03:12:48 PM »
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    • Modernist or not, he knew the Church Fathers ... as did Rahner.  And their citations are even more compelling because they’d love nothing more than to find evidence for their loose soteriology in the Fathers.  But unlike the vast majority of BoDers these Modernists are at least intellectually honest.  They don’t care if they’re consistent with the Fathers because for them doctrine can change over time.

    Ranger and Jurgens are both absolutely correct about the thinking of the Church Fathers.  I think that their quotes are in fact that much more powerful precisely BECAUSE they are Modernists.
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    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #122 on: January 26, 2022, 03:32:45 PM »
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    • Modernists like Rahner and Jurgens would have also loved nothing more than disseminating the idea that the Church had long admitted to contradictory teachings and substantial changes in doctrine, thereby paving the way for more.  I wouldn’t trust anything they said about Church teachings or history.

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    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #123 on: Yesterday at 05:42:21 PM »
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    • Are there any sede priests who would accept feeneyites at their chapel is the question. If ?Fr? Crawford was ?ordained? By Neal Webster who I know is doubtful is there anyone else. The only sede chapels in my state (Victoria , Australia) don’t accept feeneyites. Am I allowed to go as a secret feeneyite? I don’t wish to hide things from priests but… 

    Even harder question - are there any seminaries that would accept a feeneyite 
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #124 on: Yesterday at 07:12:55 PM »
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    • Alas, Bishop Webster has passed away, God rest his soul.  There's also Father Gavin Bitzer in Kentucky.

    Indeed, none of the Traditional seminaries would accept Feeneyites.

    As for going to chapel in secret, I think that's quite justified.  Some chapels / priest don't care, and even secretly sympathize.

    If the priests are in error (as I believe they are) and they would refuse me the Sacraments on account of their error, they have no right to know what I think.  Similarly, SSPX would refuse you the Sacraments if you attended CMRI from time to time, so I wouldn't tell them that either.  They have no right to use Sacraments as weapons to impose their theological positions ... even IF they weren't wrong (provided the Church has not already decided on the matter).

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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 07:58:11 PM »
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    • I posted the following article in a separate thread about a week ago.  An article about "St. Thomas on Membership in the Church."  It was written in 1963 by Fr. Colman O'Neill.  He certainly maintained that two things are necessary in light of Pius XII' Mystici Corporis, mental membership (Faith) and the Sacramental Character (indelible mark), in order to be a member of the Church. 

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    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 10:25:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 07:12:55 PM
    Alas, Bishop Webster has passed away, God rest his soul.  There's also Father Gavin Bitzer in Kentucky.

    Indeed, none of the Traditional seminaries would accept Feeneyites.

    As for going to chapel in secret, I think that's quite justified.  Some chapels / priest don't care, and even secretly sympathize.

    If the priests are in error (as I believe they are) and they would refuse me the Sacraments on account of their error, they have no right to know what I think.  Similarly, SSPX would refuse you the Sacraments if you attended CMRI from time to time, so I wouldn't tell them that either.  They have no right to use Sacraments as weapons to impose their theological positions ... even IF they weren't wrong (provided the Church has not already decided on the matter).
    Would it be licit for me to attend seminary as a secret feeneyite
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    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 10:28:53 PM »
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    • Are there any fenton/mueller position sede bishops or priests? 


    Or does formal apostolicity flow through those who deny the salvation dogma? 
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 10:51:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Predestination2 on Yesterday at 10:25:31 PM
    Would it be licit for me to attend seminary as a secret feeneyite
    They will probably test you on your beliefs at some point, and I expect you will quickly be told you do not have a vocation.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #129 on: Today at 01:26:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 10:51:39 PM
    They will probably test you on your beliefs at some point, and I expect you will quickly be told you do not have a vocation.

    I don't think so.  I believe it's quite possible to just stay under the radar.  At the very least, if pressed, you could say that you believe that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation, but not get into BoD.  I know a professor at SSPX's STAS seminary who taught that, Msgr. Fenton held it and asserted that it was still the majority opinion even in his day, and the worse he got was the rector (at that time Bishop Williamson) admonishing him to be careful not to get "too close to Feeneyism".  While I had not held the Feeneyite position while I was at STAS, there was not one time that anyone asked me what I thought about soteriology.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #130 on: Today at 01:34:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Predestination2 on Yesterday at 10:28:53 PM
    Are there any fenton/mueller position sede bishops or priests?


    Or does formal apostolicity flow through those who deny the salvation dogma?

    Well, I do find it remarkable how much they love to quote Fenton or St. Thomas when attacking those who reject BoD (since they both believed in it), but then suddenly ignore them when it comes to whether or not explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation (which they both believed).

    There's no formal apostolicity anyway carried on by the "sede" bishops, since they all lack any kind of ordinary jurisdiction.

    Nevertheless, regardless of what you think along those lines, the vast majority are probably not formally or pertinaciously heretical about their error.  Many, for instance, believe what they believe because they THINK that Trent taught BoD.  That's clearly not an improper formal motive for their belief.  They're just mistaken.  Basically, the litmus test for pretinacity has to do with imagining there's a Holy Traditional Pope, and hte then comes along and condemns BoD and forbids any discussion of the matter.  I'm sure that the great majority of them would simply accept that due to Papal authority, meaning they were not pertinacious in their belief.  Some, however, would claim that this Holy Pope is a heretical Feeneyite ... and simply declare the See vacant, illustrating the problem with straight SVism.  You can reject any papal teaching by simply declaring the man who taught it to be an AntiPope.
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    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #131 on: Today at 03:01:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 01:34:18 AM
    Well, I do find it remarkable how much they love to quote Fenton or St. Thomas when attacking those who reject BoD (since they both believed in it), but then suddenly ignore them when it comes to whether or not explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation (which they both believed).

    There's no formal apostolicity anyway carried on by the "sede" bishops, since they all lack any kind of ordinary jurisdiction.

    Nevertheless, regardless of what you think along those lines, the vast majority are probably not formally or pertinaciously heretical about their error.  Many, for instance, believe what they believe because they THINK that Trent taught BoD.  That's clearly not an improper formal motive for their belief.  They're just mistaken.  Basically, the litmus test for pretinacity has to do with imagining there's a Holy Traditional Pope, and hte then comes along and condemns BoD and forbids any discussion of the matter.  I'm sure that the great majority of them would simply accept that due to Papal authority, meaning they were not pertinacious in their belief.  Some, however, would claim that this Holy Pope is a heretical Feeneyite ... and simply declare the See vacant, illustrating the problem with straight SVism.  You can reject any papal teaching by simply declaring the man who taught it to be an AntiPope.
    I don’t mean that they are pertinacious heretics for simply beleiving in BoD, but that they are heretics for the anonymous Catholic stuff they teach. Like when bp McKenna said he agreed that a jew as a Jew could go to heaven. 


    The church can never be without the mark of formal Apostolicity. However in a period of sedevacante the marks act differently according to the theologians so even without originally jurisdiction, the church would still have the mark.  
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    Offline Predestination2

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #132 on: Today at 03:03:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Yesterday at 10:51:39 PM
    They will probably test you on your beliefs at some point, and I expect you will quickly be told you do not have a vocation.
    Genuine question here, are you giving advice that from what you can tell from my Cathinfo posts I probably don’t have a vocation or are you saying they would turn me down for feeney ism? 
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #133 on: Today at 03:19:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Predestination2 on Today at 03:03:14 AM
    Genuine question here, are you giving advice that from what you can tell from my Cathinfo posts I probably don’t have a vocation or are you saying they would turn me down for feeney ism?
    If they knew probably would turn you down.
    Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 01:26:48 AM
    I don't think so.  I believe it's quite possible to just stay under the radar.  At the very least, if pressed, you could say that you believe that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation, but not get into BoD.  I know a professor at SSPX's STAS seminary who taught that, Msgr. Fenton held it and asserted that it was still the majority opinion even in his day, and the worse he got was the rector (at that time Bishop Williamson) admonishing him to be careful not to get "too close to Feeneyism".  While I had not held the Feeneyite position while I was at STAS, there was not one time that anyone asked me what I thought about soteriology.
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