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Author Topic: Priests who believe EENS  (Read 12303 times)

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Offline Marion

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2022, 02:03:11 PM »
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    • Both the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent neither taught what St. Thomas had speculated on BoD and BoB, nor explicitly condemned it. I think that's because the speculations of St. Thomas were neither based on revelation, nor on a common teaching of the Fathers. Neither divinely revealed, nor in a solid way based on tradition.

    Both Councils weren't concerned with sorting out the ideas of Catholic theologians. They had other tasks. The Council of Trent implicity rejects BoD and BoB, by naming several necessary conditions for justification. These include the laver of generation, voto, preparation, faith, and more. The candidate asks the Church for the faith, and receives infused that sort of faith, hope, and charity, without which none can please the Lord.

    Why didn't they explicitly condemn BoD and BoB? Why did they only strictly forbid to teach, preach, or believe anything else on justification? The Lord knows why. However, a replacement for the sacrament of baptism is neither divinely revealed, nor consistently found in tradition.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline augustineeens

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #91 on: January 23, 2022, 11:43:13 PM »
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #92 on: January 24, 2022, 04:38:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: augustineeens on January 23, 2022, 11:43:13 PM
    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf
    This type thing coming from a priest and a bishop, I would say is preaching heresy and I find it remarkable that they would go out of their way to preach it. smh
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #93 on: January 24, 2022, 06:54:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 24, 2022, 04:38:34 AM
    This type thing coming from a priest and a bishop, I would say is preaching heresy and I find it remarkable that they would go out of their way to preach it. smh

    Dr. Fastiggi, in his public debate with Bishop Sanborn, absolutely destroyed him on this point.  +Sanborn started out by denouncing the "ecclesiology" as the chief heresy of Vatican II.  But then later he stated that, of course this doesn't mean that non-Catholics can't be saved by Baptism of Desire.  Fastiggi correctly exploited this and won the debate.

    If you say that non-Catholics can be saved, then because of the dogma "no salvation outside the Church", you MUST say that these non-Catholics can be in the Church, and thus you get Vatican II ecclesiology.  This cognitive dissonance is mind-boggling to me.

    If you want to believe in a BoD, you need to limit it to Catechumens or at the very most Catechumen-like people who profess the Catholic faith before they die.  Otherwise, you don't have a leg to stand on in rejecting Vatican II.  As soon as you say that non-Catholics, i.e. heretics and infidels (Hindus in Tibet) can be saved by BoD, you're done, and to paraphrase Bishop Sanborn himself, you might as well just head to your nearest local Novus Ordo clown mass.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #94 on: January 24, 2022, 06:59:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: augustineeens on January 23, 2022, 11:43:13 PM
    https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf

    Wow.  I just started reading this, and there are two heresies on the first page.  Believe in BoD if you feel compelled to do so, but please at least articulate your BoD in a non-heretical way.  :facepalm:  If I have time, I'm going to go through this.  It's absolutely horrible.  By his own criteria, Bishop Sanborn is a manifes heretic outside the Church.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #95 on: January 24, 2022, 07:14:58 AM »
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    • +Sanborn --
    Quote
    5. Is baptism absolutely necessary? Baptism is not absolutely necessary ...


    Catechism of St. Pius X
    Quote
    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    This is a heretical denial of Trent's teaching regarding the necessity of Baptism.

    That's is why theologians such as St. Robert Bellarmine, after Trent, refused to say that people could be saved without Baptism, but rather said that they received Baptism in voto.

    Even if you believe in Baptism of Desire, you must maintain the absolute necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  You must articulate your belief in BoD in such a way that these are simply different MODES of RECEIVING the same Sacrament.

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    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #96 on: January 24, 2022, 07:31:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2022, 07:14:58 AM
    Even if you believe in Baptism of Desire, you must maintain the absolute necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  You must articulate your belief in BoD in such a way that these are simply different MODES of RECEIVING the same Sacrament.

    And if you do so, you're condemned by another one of the canons of Trent for asserting baptism without water.
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    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #97 on: January 24, 2022, 07:39:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2022, 06:54:34 AM
    Dr. Fastiggi, in his public debate with Bishop Sanborn, absolutely destroyed him on this point. 
    I remember that debate, it was disappointing to see +Sanborn fail so miserably.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #98 on: January 24, 2022, 07:42:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Marion on January 24, 2022, 07:31:23 AM
    And if you do so, you're condemned by another one of the canons of Trent for asserting baptism without water.

    I feel there's a bit of room for interpretation regarding that Canon, that would allow people to wiggle out of heresy, but I agree that the canon strongly militates against BoD.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #99 on: January 24, 2022, 07:42:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2022, 07:14:58 AM

    +Sanborn --

    Catechism of St. Pius X
    This is a heretical denial of Trent's teaching regarding the necessity of Baptism.

    That's is why theologians such as St. Robert Bellarmine, after Trent, refused to say that people could be saved without Baptism, but rather said that they received Baptism in voto.

    Even if you believe in Baptism of Desire, you must maintain the absolute necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  You must articulate your belief in BoD in such a way that these are simply different MODES of RECEIVING the same Sacrament.

    But look at Q. 17 in the Pius X Catechism. Here, I'll put them together:



    Quote
    Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptised


    16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.



    Now, honestly, the "absolute necess[ity] to salvation" of baptism can be "absent" and "supplied" by other things for what? 

    This is just like the "no other remedy" or "no other means" language of the Council of Florence and the RC. It's obvious from the context what the substitutes "supply" for in the "absence" of what is "necessary to salvation:" they can supply for salvation. 

    To argue that the word "salvation" doesn't appear in the answer to 17 is to resort to word games and pretense.

    Evidently I'm the third wheel here. Sorry. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #100 on: January 24, 2022, 07:44:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on January 24, 2022, 07:39:26 AM
    I remember that debate, it was disappointing to see +Sanborn fail so miserably.

    Yeah, he got drubbed. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #101 on: January 24, 2022, 07:45:09 AM »
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    • +Sanborn:
    Quote
    9. How does the baptism of desire act? It acts ex opere operantis, that is, by virtue of the dispositions of the subject; and not ex opere operato, that is, by virtue of the work done: whence it follows that it can justify none but adults.

    Pelagianism.  People save themselves.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #102 on: January 24, 2022, 07:49:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2022, 07:45:09 AM
    +Sanborn:
    Pelagianism.  People save themselves.
    That's right - which begs the question: If one can attain heaven by desiring the sacrament, then why can't one simply desire to ascend directly into heaven and attain salvation by that desire?
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #103 on: January 24, 2022, 07:50:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 24, 2022, 07:45:09 AM
    +Sanborn:
    Pelagianism.  People save themselves.

    Yeah, I agree.

    For cryin' out loud, I'm not advocating for BOD. God determines both the ends and the means, and applies them to His elect. If baptism is a divinely established  means, why wouldn't God bring the elect to the font? BOD makes no sense under a sovereign God who decides who, what, when and how.

    But I'm not going to pretend that it's not there (the possibility of salvation by BOD) in Magisterial docuмents that confront us. I didn't write them; yet it's incuмbent on me to honestly read them.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #104 on: January 24, 2022, 07:51:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 24, 2022, 07:42:34 AM

    But look at Q. 17 in the Pius X Catechism. Here, I'll put them together:


    Now, honestly, the "absolute necess[ity] to salvation" of baptism can be "absent" and "supplied" by other things for what?

    This is just like the "no other remedy" or "no other means" language of the Council of Florence and the RC. It's obvious from the context what the substitutes "supply" for in the "absence" of what is "necessary to salvation:" they can supply for salvation.

    To argue that the word "salvation" doesn't appear in the answer to 17 is to resort to word games and pretense.

    Evidently I'm the third wheel here. Sorry.

    Either this is a massive contradicition (due to the fact that this Catechism has been edited multiple times), or BoD/BoB can supply for some effects of Baptism that fall short of salvation (aka Father Feeney's position).  St. Ambrose made a distinction between "washing" (possible through BoB, and he hoped also by BoD for Valentinian) and "crowning" (which is not possible even for BoB).  I started an entire thread where the Church Fathers distinguish between entering the Kingdom (beatific vision) and a washing of the guilt due to sin.  This is what makes the quote from St. Simplicius make sense.

    BTW, St. Simplicius' teaching is closest to a dogmatic rejection of BoD that can be found anywhere, and I can find no way that a BoDer can wiggle out of this quotation.

    Also, one of the dogmatic EENS definitions states that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful".  Msgr. Fenton explains that the "faithful" is a technical term that positively excludes Catechumens.  He wiggles out of that one with his "undigested hamburger" soteriology, where someone can be IN the body without actually being PART OF the body.
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