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Author Topic: Priests who believe EENS  (Read 8528 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2022, 03:38:33 PM »
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  • The RC contained errors which were corrected by Clement XIII. There's a foreword by Pope Clement XIII saying so (June 14, 1761).

    Clement says "gereinigt von den Fehlern, die es aus versehen der Bearbeiter in sich aufgenommen hat" (German edition). (cleansed of the errors which entered into it by mistake of the editors)

    There seems to be no guarantee that a Cathechism is free of errors.

    Ok, but obviously there wasn't any "cleansing" re the BOD sections we're discussing: they're still there.

    And there's also a ton of support for the RC position on an explicit BOD in the great doctors of the Church: St. Augustine, St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, etc. So I still find it trustworthy on these sections on baptism that apparently didn't need cleansing.

    It would also be very interesting to see what was "cleansed."

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #31 on: January 20, 2022, 03:40:23 PM »
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  • Can you cite a source for this? That would be very helpful.

    I got a German edition of the RC of 1970AD, PETRUS-Verlag, D-5242 Kirchen/Sieg. It contains a preface of four pages by Pope Clement XIII, date as given in my previous post.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #32 on: January 20, 2022, 03:42:45 PM »
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  • I got a German edition of the RC of 1970AD, PETRUS-Verlag, D-5242 Kirchen/Sieg. It contains a preface of four pages by Pope Clement XIII, date as given in my previous post.
    Did it state what it corrected?
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #33 on: January 20, 2022, 03:44:36 PM »
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  • Ok, but obviously there wasn't any "cleansing" re the BOD sections we're discussing: they're still there.

    And there's also a ton of support for the RC position on an explicit BOD in the great doctors of the Church: St. Augustine, St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, etc. So I still find it trustworthy on these sections on baptism that apparently didn't need cleansing.

    It would also be very interesting to see what was "cleansed."


    It shows that the RC isn't infallible, and still may contain errors. Pope Clement doesn't name any error removed.

    Why ask Saints, who aren't infallible, if there's the infallible Council of Trent? All you could do is try to prove an infallible Council wrong.

    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #34 on: January 20, 2022, 03:46:32 PM »
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  • My edition says it's translated from a Roman edition of 1855.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #35 on: January 20, 2022, 03:51:27 PM »
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  • Links to many Latin editions can be found at wikisource:

    https://de.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Katechismus
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #36 on: January 20, 2022, 04:04:17 PM »
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  • It shows that the RC isn't infallible, and still may contain errors. Pope Clement doesn't name any error removed.

    Why ask Saints, who aren't infallible, if there's the infallible Council of Trent? All you could do is try to prove an infallible Council wrong.

    Not following you: the RC accords with the Council of Trent. And it doesn't have to be infallible to be correct: e.g., it correctly maintains God is triune, etc. I believe it is correct on BOD. 

    And the fact that saints also agree with it just strengthens the trustworthiness of its position for me on the BOD question.

    Let's also go back to the beginning: the RC says "if some unforeseen," etc.  I agree and absolutely believe that would be the case - "if." That, however, prescinds from the question of whether it in fact happens, which the RC doesn't assert. And Trent doesn't either. Trents simply asserts that the desire can justify, and indicates that anyone who dies in a state of justification would be saved; it doesn't assert that men are saved without baptism. 

    I simply will not take the position that it is impossible to be saved without baptism in light of the RC and the testimony of the saints that concur with it. Maybe that's just me. 

     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #37 on: January 20, 2022, 06:14:51 PM »
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  • Not following you: the RC accords with the Council of Trent. And it doesn't have to be infallible to be correct: e.g., it correctly maintains God is triune, etc. I believe it is correct on BOD.

    And the fact that saints also agree with it just strengthens the trustworthiness of its position for me on the BOD question.

    Let's also go back to the beginning: the RC says "if some unforeseen," etc.  I agree and absolutely believe that would be the case - "if." That, however, prescinds from the question of whether it in fact happens, which the RC doesn't assert. And Trent doesn't either. Trents simply asserts that the desire can justify, and indicates that anyone who dies in a state of justification would be saved; it doesn't assert that men are saved without baptism.

    I simply will not take the position that it is impossible to be saved without baptism in light of the RC and the testimony of the saints that concur with it. Maybe that's just me.

    The infallible Council of Trent, in the Decree on Justification, is

    Quote
    most strictly forbidding that any henceforth presume to believe, preach, or teach, otherwise than as by this present decree is defined and declared.

    So you can't convince any real Catholic of anything else than the sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent teaches on justification.

    Additionally, the Vatican Council says in the Creed of the same Council:

    Quote
    I embrace and accept the whole and every part of what was defined and declared by the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.

    [...]

    I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all.


    Therefore, I won't discuss Saints and Catechisms on the topic. I prefer to adhere to infallible Church doctrine fallen from heaven, because I prefer to go to heaven, and not to hell.

    Now, the Council of Trent teaches unequivocally that, since the promulgation of the gospel, no one went to heaven or will go to heaven without having received the sacrament of baptism. I will write more on this below.


    (Quotes from papalencyclicals.net)



    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #38 on: January 20, 2022, 06:47:39 PM »
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  • Decem, I recommend that you study the Decree on Justification of the Council of Trent, entirely and in detail. It is very clear and leaves no doubt. And it is pertinent, while all other sources are not pertinent (see my previous post). You should first be concerned about your own salvation for the sake of truth. Don't misinterpret the Council of Trent, just for the sake of whatever ideas you personally like or prefer.

    BoD-heretics misuse one small statement in the whole decree. They misinterpret a necessary condition to render a sufficient condition. "Not without this or that" does neither mean that this is sufficient, nor that that is sufficent, nor that both this and that are sufficient. It means that both are necessary, not sufficient. It is a necessary condition not a sufficient condition. Not even both desiring to be baptized and actually being baptised is sufficient to be justified. More is needed, as the decree explains. E.g. a preparation is necessary.

    Also, the decree explains that the "faith" of a catechumen is not enough. A candidate needs faith, hope, and charity infused by the sacrament. The rite even has the candidate ask for the faith. "What do you ask the Church for?" He has to answer: "the faith". Study the whole text, the decree very clearly states all these aspects. The sacrament is the instrumental cause of justification. There is no justification without the sacrament.

    You understand logic and language, I don't write to make you believe what I say. I want you to study the text, having your own salvation in mind.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #39 on: January 20, 2022, 07:06:11 PM »
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  • Ok. But the RC's language about the danger to infants is that "there is no other remedy except baptism" if they die ("the danger of death," as the RC says), and the case with catechumen implies there is not that danger because there is another remedy or means, and implicitly, in context and by way of comparison (and the comparison with infants is clearly invoked), if they would die.

    I think the context, as I said with Stubborn, supports my reading.


    I don't think that's any different.  Since infants haven't attained the use of reason, they are incapabe of formulating a votum ... which would, to quote St. Fulgentius, "avail them to slavation by [keeping them alive] to receive Baptism."  I'll get the exact quotes for you.  St. Fulgentius clearly cite a case saying that the person's "confession" would avail to salvation (in Trent "avail to" grace and righteousness) ... BECAUSE it guaranteed that they'd stay alive until they could receive Baptism.  So for adults the votum can serve as a remed by "availing to" salvation in this same sense.  Here the sense of the Latin that it would avail them to grace and righteousness ... LEST some obstacle (not [fatal] "accident"] get in the way of their receiving Baptism.  I'll dig up the Latin of this at some point.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #40 on: January 20, 2022, 08:15:40 PM »
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  • I'll get the exact quotes for you.  St. Fulgentius clearly cite a case saying that the person's "confession" would avail to salvation (in Trent "avail to" grace and righteousness) ...


    The quotes have been posted before, but what is the source?



    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/implicit-bod/msg714657/#msg714657


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/fr-jenkins-on-fr-feeney/msg518776/#msg518776


    https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=51891&pid=945385#pid945385




    What is the source of this quote?



    Quote
    St. Fulgentius:
     
    Let no doubt shake our mind from this view; let no one say that a man is saved unless he comes to this bodily immersion; at any rate let us not say that he can be saved without the sacrament of baptism purely on the confession of faith. For he who believes and is baptized, will be saved. And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith: we maintain that it was through the sacrament of baptism that he was saved. If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism.



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #41 on: January 20, 2022, 08:22:54 PM »
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  • Lad,

    Someone copied at least one of your posts for a Church bulletin.

    From the first link below, scroll down and look at the 12th block of text outlined in a black rectangle:



    http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/Bulletin-Announcements/BulletinPosts,Older_Still_Current_10.htm


    http://saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/index.htm



    Saints Peter and Paul Roman Catholic Chapel

    129 South Beaver Street
    York, PA  17401
    717-792-2789







    Quote

    Both the Sacrament of Baptism and the will to receive the Sacrament are necessary for salvation!

    “But God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration.” St. Fulgentius
    Thus the proper understanding of the passage from the Catechism of Trent:
    Canon 4 on the sacraments in general: If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema.
     
    “If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no avail: Baptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.” St. Fulgentius
     
    Notice, both the CONFESSION AND THE BAPTISM are necessary for salvation, harkening back to Trent's teaching that both the laver AND the “votum” are required for justification, and harkening back to Our Lord's teaching that we must be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit.

     In fact, you see the language of St. Fulgentius reflected in the Council of Trent.  Trent describes the votum (so-called “desire”) as the PATH TO SALVATION, the disposition to Baptism, and then says that “JUSTIFICATION ITSELF” (St. Fulgentius says “SALVATION ITSELF”) follows the dispositions in the Sacrament of Baptism.


     Yet another solid argument for why Trent is teaching that BOTH the votum AND the Sacrament are required for justification.

    “Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that not only all pagans but also all Jєωs and all heretics and schismatics who end this present life outside the Catholic Church are about to go into the eternal fire that was prepared for the Devil and his angels.”
    St. Fulgentius
     
    “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the ‘eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.’”  St. Eugene IV, Cantate Domino

    Ladislaus, CathInfo



    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Sefa

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #42 on: January 21, 2022, 03:13:24 AM »
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  • But the (non-Pelagian, non-heretical) BoDers do continue to maintain that the Sacrament is absolutely necessary for salvation.  What they say though is that the Sacrament is necessary in desire.  They say it's necessary to receve in voto even if not necessarily in re.  That's a faulty argument made by many of the Dimondite anti-BoDers  You can still say the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation even if you allow for the modality of receiving it in voto.  Trent itself teaches that the Sacrament of Confession is necessary to be restored to a state of grace after a post-Baptismal fall, but clearly holds that it can be received in voto.  About Confession Trent says, saltem in voto, "at least in desire".  Since the Church has tolerated this opinion and even made Doctors of the Church a couple of me who held that position, it would be rather presumptuous to hold that the opinion is not at least tenable.  I think it's wrong and mistaken, for reasons I have articulated elsewhere, but I don't hold that it's inherently harmful to the faith if understood as St. Thomas, St. Robert, and St. Alphonsus held it.
    Another option is that Sts Thomas, bellarmine and alphonsus did not actually hold those views about baptism of desire but other people sneaked them into their works after they had died particularily in the age of freemasonic illumination where they seized control of all state apparatus and publishing and usurped even those positions held by clerics. The whole 20th century has been an information and historical revisionism war so i dont trust everything i read to be authentic.

    I am certain that many popes and councils have stated (as well as christ himself) the necessicity of receiving baptism and not merely desiring but not receiving it. I concede that Christ could personally baptise someone himself (with water and the form) right before their death and so if that is the bod position held then i agree but then why call it baptism of desire and not just baptism then? Bod muddies the waters and as you said opens up to pelagianism.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #43 on: January 21, 2022, 03:32:06 AM »
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  • I still think "EENS" is a waste of time nothingburger for 99.999% of people who make it their hobby and/or life's work, main crusade.

    I haven't encountered any Trads anywhere in Tradition -- not even in the Indult, which is technically not part of the Traditional Movement -- that encourage would-be converts to stay in a false religion, for various reasons (they can be saved there too, water Baptism isn't necessary, etc.)

    Call me down-to-earth or non-intellectual if you will, but my take on EENS is simple. Get baptized, join the Catholic Church or die the death -- the eternal death. It's simple, at least to me. I look at pagan countries and it's clear that the chances of any of those billions saving their souls is about zero if some Catholic missionary doesn't intervene. Even if one out of 10 million somehow saved their soul, who likes them odds? Missionaries are indispensable and crucial to the eternal salvation of a huge portion of the world.

    I think those who argue EENS, Feeneyism, etc. should spend those dozens of hours writing Apologetics works, running an apologetics website/apostolate instead. Much more good would be done.

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    Offline Francis Xavier

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #44 on: January 21, 2022, 03:42:00 AM »
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  • Another option is that Sts Thomas, bellarmine and alphonsus did not actually hold those views about baptism of desire but other people sneaked them into their works after they had died particularily in the age of freemasonic illumination where they seized control of all state apparatus and publishing and usurped even those positions held by clerics. The whole 20th century has been an information and historical revisionism war so i dont trust everything i read to be authentic.
    That's nuts, for if it is the case, then we can doubt about anything, like the ordinary Magisterium, or canons of the Councils, there's no legitimate ground to cast doubt to the authenticity of these works.
    I am certain that many popes and councils have stated (as well as christ himself) the necessicity of receiving baptism and not merely desiring but not receiving it.
    I agree, not only the Sacrament is necessary, but the actual reception of the Sacrament itself is necessary. One might argue for this point from the ordinary Magisterium.