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Author Topic: Priests who believe EENS  (Read 66059 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2022, 11:04:16 AM »

The RC or Roman Catechism is the Catechism of the Council of Trent, do I have that correct? If so, that catechism does not say, nor ever even imply anywhere "that it is possible to be saved by a desire for the sacrament" neither does the Council of Trent say any such a thing.

Can you please quote the lesson you're referring to from the catechism (PDF attached)? And if possible from the Council of Trent?

"Nor even imply?"

Here:

Quote
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

It certainly at least implies - to put it midly - that one can be saved by a desire for baptism with repentance. If "it is impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters," that desire and repentance will "avail them to grace and righteousness."


And what is the "danger as in the case of infants"?

Here:

Quote
Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain 120 without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2022, 11:40:53 AM »

"Nor even imply?"

Here:

Quote
On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

It certainly at least implies - to put it midly - that one can be saved by a desire for baptism with repentance. If "it is impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters," that desire and repentance will "avail them to grace and righteousness."

And what is the "danger as in the case of infants"?

Here:
Ok, the RC first off states there is no danger of death involved, if there were, then the adult must be be baptized asap like infants who are more prone shall we say, to die at any time. This is why for adults there is a delay, but not for infants. However, when there is a danger of death, read the very next chapter, do that and you will see the RC teaches that:

Quote
In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be: Baptised At Once

Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death,
Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith.
This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one
baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the
faith.

To continue with  the first part where it says: "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Grace and righteousness are attributes of the living, not the dead. Neither Trent nor the RC are talking about the attainment of salvation, which is an attribute of the dead, not the living.

So yes, their intention etc. "will avail", which is to say will help, or aid them, and be of use toward grace and righteousness, which is justification, but it does not reward or even give them grace or righteousness, nor does it mean it will reward them salvation.

So your concern of being opposed to the RC really has no basis.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2022, 11:45:34 AM »
I've addressed the Roman Catechism passage.  I don't believe that it means what people claim.  It means that for those who have the genuine votum for Baptism, God will not allow them to pass away without the Sacrament.  It harkens back to a simlar passage from St. Fulgentius.

St. Fulgentius mentioned a case of some young man about to die and said that is confession (aka profession of faith) wold avail for his salvation ... and then added ... since it preserved him in life until he could be baptized.  I believe that's the sense of Trent here.  That due to the strengh of one's votum to receive Baptism, God would pevent some circuмstance from getting in the way.  One problem is the translation of what I Latin means more "circuмstance" to an "accident" (which implies a fatal accident but doesn't have that same sense in Latin).

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2022, 12:03:00 PM »

It certainly at least implies - to put it midly - that one can be saved by a desire for baptism with repentance. If "it is impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters," that desire and repentance will "avail them to grace and righteousness."

And what is the "danger as in the case of infants"?

Here:

Ok, the RC first off states there is no danger of death involved, if there were, then the adult must be be baptized asap like infants who are more prone shall we say, to die at any time. This is why for adults there is a delay, but not for infants. However, when there is a danger of death, read the very next chapter, do that and you will see the RC teaches that:

To continue with  the first part where it says: "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Grace and righteousness are attributes of the living, not the dead. Neither Trent nor the RC are talking about the attainment of salvation, which is an attribute of the dead, not the living.

So yes, their intention etc. "will avail", which is to say will help, or aid them, and be of use toward grace and righteousness, which is justification, but it does not reward or even give them grace or righteousness, nor does it mean it will reward them salvation.

So your concern of being opposed to the RC really has no basis.

It has a very good basis under a natural reading, especially considering the prior section about the danger to infants in delaying baptism. 

As I said, what is that "danger": that, in case they die, there is no other remedy to salvation other than baptism. Again, look at the context regarding the infants, and consider that catechumen "are not attended with the same danger" (quoting the catechism):


Quote
Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain 120 without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

Catechumens, who are capable of both desire for baptism and repentance (unlike infants), don't have that danger. In other words, they do have a means of salvation other than baptism if they were to die without the laver. 

You will persist with your reading, and I will with mine, which of course I think is far stronger and the correct reading. 



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2022, 12:07:26 PM »
I've addressed the Roman Catechism passage.  I don't believe that it means what people claim.  It means that for those who have the genuine votum for Baptism, God will not allow them to pass away without the Sacrament.  It harkens back to a simlar passage from St. Fulgentius.

St. Fulgentius mentioned a case of some young man about to die and said that is confession (aka profession of faith) wold avail for his salvation ... and then added ... since it preserved him in life until he could be baptized.  I believe that's the sense of Trent here.  That due to the strengh of one's votum to receive Baptism, God would pevent some circuмstance from getting in the way.  One problem is the translation of what I Latin means more "circuмstance" to an "accident" (which implies a fatal accident but doesn't have that same sense in Latin).

Ok. But the RC's language about the danger to infants is that "there is no other remedy except baptism" if they die ("the danger of death," as the RC says), and the case with catechumen implies there is not that danger because there is another remedy or means, and implicitly, in context and by way of comparison (and the comparison with infants is clearly invoked), if they would die.

I think the context, as I said with Stubborn, supports my reading.