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Author Topic: Priests who believe EENS  (Read 40209 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Priests who believe EENS
« Reply #105 on: January 24, 2022, 07:56:31 AM »
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  • For cryin' out loud, I'm not advocating for BOD. God determines both the ends and the means, and applies them to His elect. If baptism is a divinely established  means, why wouldn't God bring the elect to the font?


    This entire presmise of BoD is that somehow God is bound by impossibility (heretical).  It is no more difficult for God to bring the Sacrament to someone as to inspire a votum for the Sacrament.  St. Augustine explicitly rejected this opinion for those "who wish to be Catholic" in his famous "vortex of confusion" quote.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #106 on: January 24, 2022, 07:59:01 AM »
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  • Either this is a massive contradicition (due to the fact that this Catechism has been edited multiple times), or BoD/BoB can supply for some effects of Baptism that fall short of salvation (aka Father Feeney's position).  St. Ambrose made a distinction between "washing" (possible through BoB, and he hoped also by BoD for Valentinian) and "crowning" (which is not possible even for BoB).  I started an entire thread where the Church Fathers distinguish between entering the Kingdom (beatific vision) and a washing of the guilt due to sin.  This is what makes the quote from St. Simplicius make sense.

    BTW, St. Simplicius' teaching is closest to a dogmatic rejection of BoD that can be found anywhere, and I can find no way that a BoDer can wiggle out of this quotation.

    Also, one of the dogmatic EENS definitions states that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful".  Msgr. Fenton explains that the "faithful" is a technical term that positively excludes Catechumens.  He wiggles out of that one with his "undigested hamburger" soteriology, where someone can be IN the body without actually being PART OF the body.

    I say it appears to be a massive contradiction. One can only hope it was sabotaged by some revisers. 

    As to option 2, the Father Feeney solution, I must insist, again, that the context and the language of the two sections are so awfully written that I wouldn't trust the thing (the Catechism) for anything if it blundered so bad as to suggest, quite palpably, that BOB and BOD can supply for salvation in the absence of the sacrament. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #107 on: January 24, 2022, 07:59:57 AM »
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  • This entire presmise of BoD is that somehow God is bound by impossibility (heretical).  It is no more difficult for God to bring the Sacrament to someone as to inspire a votum for the Sacrament.  St. Augustine explicitly rejected this opinion for those "who wish to be Catholic" in his famous "vortex of confusion" quote.

    Absolutely agree. 

    Too bad we didn't write the catechisms. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #108 on: January 24, 2022, 08:00:45 AM »
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  • This entire presmise of BoD is that somehow God is bound by impossibility (heretical).  It is no more difficult for God to bring the Sacrament to someone as to inspire a votum for the Sacrament.  St. Augustine explicitly rejected this opinion for those "who wish to be Catholic" in his famous "vortex of confusion" quote.
    That's right, and it is because God is bound by impossibility that He (His Providence) is taken out of the formula for a BOD altogether. That's the only way a BOD works, when God is taken out of the formula. The whole act of a BOD is based on faith alone - condemned at Trent in one of the most popular canons BODers like to site. Amazing stuff.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #109 on: January 24, 2022, 08:43:15 AM »
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  • But we know that the point of BoD for most BoDers isn't about a case of "impossibility".

    Their real intent is to use BoD to get non-Catholics saved.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #110 on: January 24, 2022, 03:45:31 PM »
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  • This entire presmise of BoD is that somehow God is bound by impossibility (heretical).  It is no more difficult for God to bring the Sacrament to someone as to inspire a votum for the Sacrament.  St. Augustine explicitly rejected this opinion for those "who wish to be Catholic" in his famous "vortex of confusion" quote.
    I think the premise was different for different people.  Assuming St Ambrose was implying BOD (I know it is not certain), his motivation surely was to prevent his catechumens from becoming discouraged.  I would think St Augustine was either of the same mind as Ambrose or he didn't want to contradict Ambrose.  But later he reversed his position.  St Thomas maybe didn't want to contradict Augustine.  Or maybe BOD was already gaining traction at that time and St Thomas didn't see any reason to oppose it given that Augustine supported it.  But clearly none of them believed that non-Catholics could be saved.  St Thomas at least taught that God would miraculously instruct those who were ignorant of the necessary articles of faith.  Francis Sullivan in his EENS book wrote that it wasn't until the discovery of the new world that the Jesuits gradually started developing the idea that non-Catholics could be saved.  He asserted that it was because theologians were concerned that God would be seen as cold and cruel if people who had no opportunity to be evangelized were cast into hell.  This idea of noble savages is odd.  It seems diabolical to me.  It certainly isn't intuitive.  And if you knew about the Church's teaching on original sin, why would you think that unevangelized people who are sunk in the depths of the most disgusting and unnatural vices would be worthy of being saved?  The North American Blackrobe martyrs didn't find anyone who wasn't mired in some kind of vice.  That many of them became very holy after conversion doesn't imply that they were good before conversion.  It wasn't until the 19th century that BOD started being used as an instrument to save Jews and Muslims who explicitly reject the Catholic faith.  The motive for that was certainly the destruction of the Catholic Church.  But that is exactly what most Catholic seminaries were teaching by the 20th century.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #111 on: January 25, 2022, 05:43:45 AM »
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  • https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf
    Foot note below is quoted verbatim from the above link from two who are wont to pass themselves off as "theologians" of this century. I post it because it amazes me what both of these educated shepherds of the Church, of all people did, that so effectively changes Trent's meaning into the exact opposite of what it actually says.

    Quote
    [7] In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as
    being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the
    first Adam to the state of grace and of the “adoption of sons”
    [Romans VIII:15] of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our
    Savior; and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel
    cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration, or a
    desire for it, as it is written: “Unless a man be born again of water and
    the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” [John III:5]. [emphasis added]

    They say that justification cannot be effected *except through*, but the Latin: "sine lavacro regenerationis, aut ejus voto, fieri non potest" means that "it is not possible", or simply "without," which means Trent is actually teaching that justification "cannot possibly be effected without the sacrament or a desire for it, as it is written..."

    For such educated shepherds, why on earth wouldn't they say to themselves - "hmmm, I wonder why Trent quotes John 3:5 at the end?" since it is altogether out of place and makes no sense whatsoever in the context of any BOD or their teaching, while at the same time it serves to prove and confirm Trent's teaching the absolute necessity of the sacrament.

    Anyone?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #112 on: January 25, 2022, 05:10:52 PM »
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  •  And if you knew about the Church's teaching on original sin, why would you think that unevangelized people who are sunk in the depths of the most disgusting and unnatural vices would be worthy of being saved?  


    Why indeed. And why would a saint who knows that God has established baptism as the means for entrance into the Kingdom of His Son in the New Covenant, and who also knows this:



    Quote
    Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Matthew 20:14-15).



    SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Predestination (Prima Pars, Q. 23) (newadvent.org)


    Also say that God has chosen to save some in the New Covenant without the sacrament that He has taken such great pains to establish and decree as the means of salvation? 

    Why indeed. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #113 on: January 25, 2022, 06:50:22 PM »
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  • https://mostholytrinityseminary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Combined-Feeney-articles-red.pdf

    Quote from: Dei filius
    Porro fide divina et catholica ea omnia credenda sunt, quae in verbo Dei scripto vel tradito continentur, et ab Ecclesia sive solemni iudicio sive ordinario et universali magisterio tamquam divinitus revelata credenda proponuntur.
    vatican.va

    Quote from: Dei filius
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture or tradition, and proposed by the church, whether by solemn judgment or the ordinary and universal magisterium as matters to be believed as divinely revealed.

    In the pamphlet, linked by augistineeens, Cekada twists the infallible teaching of the Vatican Council. Cekada quotes the above teaching of the Vatican Council, and at the same time misrepresents it, adding disruptive emphasis and adding a punctuation mark, to twist the meaning (see Section I, I., A.). He then explicitly confirms his intention to eliminate an important condition by restating the teaching in his own words, omitting the condition (see Section I, I., C.).

    The condition is "to be believed as divinely revealed". The Council is not speaking about everything which is proposed to be believed, but about those things which are proposed to be believed as divinely revealed.

    So much for the first misrepresentation of infallible truth solemnly proposed by the extraordinary magisterium of the Church of the Lord.

    Cekada goes ahead, twisting the words of Pope Pius IX (see Section I, II.):

    Quote from: Cĭcāda
    II. You must believe those teachings of the universal ordinary
    magisterium held by theologians to belong to the faith

    (Pius IX).
    • “For even if it were a matter concerning that subjection which
    is to be manifested by an act of divine faith, nevertheless, it would
    not have to be limited to those matters which have been defined by
    express decrees of the ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pon-
    tiffs and of this See, but would have to be extended also to those
    matters which are handed down as divinely revealed by the ordi-
    nary teaching power of the whole Church spread throughout the
    world, and therefore, by universal and common consent are held
    by Catholic theologians to belong to faith.
    ” Tuas Libenter (1863),
    DZ 1683.

    Pope Pius IX says "matters which are handed down as divinely revealed, and therefore ... held ... by Catholic theologians as de fide." Cekada, in the heading, swaps cause and effect, and claims that we must believe, not what in fact was handed down as divinely revealed, not what in fact was handed down by the magisterium as divinely revealed, but what theologians hold to belong to the faith.


    Then, Cekada goes ahead teaching all sorts of ideas selected from his linear meters of manuals, completely ignoring the magisterium. He starts his Section II with the heading:

    Quote from: Cĭcāda
    Why the Church Requires You
    to Believe or Adhere to Doctrines
    Commonly Taught by her Theologians.

    [...]

    I. Introductory Concepts.

    A. Definition of Theologian = “learned man who after the time of the Church Fathers scientifically taught sacred doctrine in the Church.”


    Science replaces the magisterium, Cĭcāda cantat (the locust chirps).

    Forget the magisterium, Cĭcāda presents scientific proof, why it's safe to do so:

    Quote from: Locust
    IV. Thesis: The unanimous teaching of theologians in matters
    of faith and morals establishes certitude for the proof of a dogma.



    May the Lord have mercy on this scorpion.
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #114 on: January 25, 2022, 08:05:31 PM »
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  • I think the premise was different for different people.  Assuming St Ambrose was implying BOD (I know it is not certain), his motivation surely was to prevent his catechumens from becoming discouraged. 

    St. Augustine explained why the necessity of Baptism was causing issues for some people.  He mentioned that people regularly saw scoundrels who delayed their Baptism until death (often so they could continue with their immoral lives) be snatched from Hell at the last moment and then occasionally some devout Catechumens who had reformed their lives dying before receiving the Sacrament.

    But having given it more thought, in the "vortex of confusion" passage, he rejected that consideration for all who "wished to be Catholic".

    It's clear that the subsequent proponents of BoD were almost entirely deferring to St. Augustine's admittedly tentative and speculative opinion.  When he came out with his theory, he admitted that he went back and forth on the question but at the time he "finds that" (i.e. personal opinion rather than communicating teaching from Apostolic authority).

    5-6 Church Fathers rejected the speculation.

    Consequently, I see zero evidence that speculation regarding BoD was revealed and taught by the Apostles.  If anything the Church Fathers are consistent regarding the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  There's that famous passage from the Patristic scholar Father Jurgens, with which I wholeheartedly agree.  As a graduate student I read hundreds of pages from the Fathers in the original languages, and I concur with Father Jurgens' assessment:
    Quote
    If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility.  But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation.

    I had come to this conclusion long before I had heard of either Father Feeney or the Dimond Brothers.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #115 on: January 26, 2022, 06:11:22 AM »
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  • St. Augustine explained why the necessity of Baptism was causing issues for some people.  He mentioned that people regularly saw scoundrels who delayed their Baptism until death (often so they could continue with their immoral lives) be snatched from Hell at the last moment and then occasionally some devout Catechumens who had reformed their lives dying before receiving the Sacrament.

    But having given it more thought, in the "vortex of confusion" passage, he rejected that consideration for all who "wished to be Catholic".

    It's clear that the subsequent proponents of BoD were almost entirely deferring to St. Augustine's admittedly tentative and speculative opinion.  When he came out with his theory, he admitted that he went back and forth on the question but at the time he "finds that" (i.e. personal opinion rather than communicating teaching from Apostolic authority).

    5-6 Church Fathers rejected the speculation.

    Consequently, I see zero evidence that speculation regarding BoD was revealed and taught by the Apostles.  If anything the Church Fathers are consistent regarding the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  There's that famous passage from the Patristic scholar Father Jurgens, with which I wholeheartedly agree.  As a graduate student I read hundreds of pages from the Fathers in the original languages, and I concur with Father Jurgens' assessment:
    I had come to this conclusion long before I had heard of either Father Feeney or the Dimond Brothers.

    Excellent. 

    For ease of reference, I quote the St. Augustine passage:



    Quote
    Chapter 13 [X]—His Seventh Error. (See Above in Book II. 13 [IX.].)

    If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

    Philip Schaff: NPNF1-05. St. Augustine: Anti-Pelagian Writings - Christian Classics Ethereal Library (ccel.org)


    Directly and forcefully showing the relation of predestination and the significance of that doctrine, and its link with this issue. I'm post this quote in my predestination thread. And again reiterate my speculation and theory that it is the loss of a firm sense of the truth of this doctrine and its implications which is foundational to the development of BOD. 

    I'll also repost my quote of St. Thomas earlier in this thread so the link can be clear:


    Quote
    Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Matthew 20:14-15).



    SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Predestination (Prima Pars, Q. 23) (newadvent.org)

    If only the later St. Augustine could have discussed this with St. Thomas in reference to St. Thomas's expressions on behalf of BOD. Would love to hear a debate on that between those two . . . if St. Thomas didn't retract after discussing it with St. Augustine before it. 





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #116 on: January 26, 2022, 07:53:31 AM »
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  • This here from your citation has been my attitude regarding predestination:

    Quote
    Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err."

    I believe that this kindof speculation is a mystery far above our understanding, and so I don't spend a great deal of time on the question.  But I'll go have a look at your predestination thread.  Regardless, I absolutely rejection this notion that God can be impeded by impossibility, accidents, and surprises.  He has no more difficulty bringing the Sacraments to His elect than He has drawing them by internal inspiration.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #117 on: January 26, 2022, 08:47:02 AM »
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  • This here from your citation has been my attitude regarding predestination:

    I believe that this kindof speculation is a mystery far above our understanding, and so I don't spend a great deal of time on the question.  But I'll go have a look at your predestination thread.  Regardless, I absolutely rejection this notion that God can be impeded by impossibility, accidents, and surprises.  He has no more difficulty bringing the Sacraments to His elect than He has drawing them by internal inspiration.

    Lad,

    Yes, there is mystery as to "why" God chooses one over another: the reason for the choice is shrouded in mystery in the will of God. But there is no mystery that He chooses not in reaction to something in the men chosen: the good in them comes from Him, and is freely given to one rather than another for reasons only known to Himself.

    But, while both St. Thomas and St. Augustine maintained that that was a mystery, they were also quite clear that the choice has nothing to do with merits in the individual men - if that were the case, the "mystery" would be gone. It is a mystery because it can't be explained by differentia existing in the men involved, which would not be "mysterious": God chose A because he was "better" than the other, made the right choices, believed and the other didn't. That would not be mysterious. And we know based on Scripture that God gave the elect their saving faith and God gave them final perseverance (apart from their own merits or their "better" judgment or choice; the distinction is not there, in the men; the difference is in God's choice to give one rather than the other). This is how both St. Augustine and St. Thomas understood this passage of Scripture:


    Quote
    1 Corinthians 4:7

    [7] For who distinguisheth thee? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

    Quis enim te discernit? quid autem habes quod non accepisti? si autem accepisti, quid gloriaris quasi non acceperis?

    http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/53004.htm
     


    That the elect are predestined by God based solely upon his gratuitous choice which has nothing to do with one man being better than another is clear in Scripture and in the teaching of St. Augustine and St. Thomas. Look at the quote from St. Thomas in the Summa which I quoted above in this thread. And here's St. Augustine on the truth that is revealed in Scripture about Predestination:



    Quote
    Chapter 21 - Instances of the Unsearchable Judgments of God.


    Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,—the judgments of God are unsearchable. But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. Yet to believers it ought to be a most certain fact that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not. “For if they had been of us,” says one of the predestinated, who had drunk this secret from the breast of the Lord, “certainly they would have continued with us.”( 1 John ii. 19 . ) What, I ask, is the meaning of, “They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us”? Were not both created by God—both born of Adam—both made from the earth, and given from Him who said, “I have created all breath,”( Isa. lvii. 16 [see LXX.] ) souls of one and the same nature? Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? and had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? But if he were to hear this who beyond all doubt knew what he was saying, he might answer and say: These things are true. In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been “called according to the purpose;” they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.


    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9456-9457). Kindle Edition.


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Joe Cupertino

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #118 on: January 26, 2022, 02:30:52 PM »
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  • Consequently, I see zero evidence that speculation regarding BoD was revealed and taught by the Apostles.  If anything the Church Fathers are consistent regarding the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation.  There's that famous passage from the Patristic scholar Father Jurgens, with which I wholeheartedly agree.  As a graduate student I read hundreds of pages from the Fathers in the original languages, and I concur with Father Jurgens' assessment:
    Quote
    If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility.  But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation.
    I had come to this conclusion long before I had heard of either Father Feeney or the Dimond Brothers.

    The Dimonds cut off the first and last sentence of the paragraph.

    That passage of Jurgens is from his footnote discussing the state of infants who die without Baptism, as he says in the first sentence, removed by the Dimonds.  

    The "tradition" that Jurgens says "in fact is there" refers to the "obvious exception of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility."  Jurgens is saying BOD is the tradition that "in fact is there,", and "likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation."  If that wasn't clear, any confusion is cleared up by the last sentence of the paragraph, which the Dimonds also removed.  

    Here's the full paragraph (bolded sentences are the two the Dimonds removed): 


    Quote
    "31.  The state of infants who die without Baptism has long been one of the knottier problems of theology.  If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of “unless a man be born again et reliqua” is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility.  But the tradition in fact is there; and it is likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation.  The Church always admitted Baptism of desire as a rescuing factor, when the desire is a personal and conscious one on the part of the one desiring Baptism for himself, as in the case of a catechumen."

    Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol 3, pg. 14-15


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Priests who believe EENS
    « Reply #119 on: January 26, 2022, 02:36:58 PM »
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  • I had come to this conclusion long before I had heard of either Father Feeney or the Dimond Brothers.


    The Dimonds cut off the first and last sentence of the paragraph.

    That passage of Jurgens is from his footnote discussing the state of infants who die without Baptism, as he says in the first sentence, removed by the Dimonds. 

    The "tradition" that Jurgens says "in fact is there" refers to the "obvious exception of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility."  Jurgens is saying BOD is the tradition that "in fact is there,", and "likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation."  If that wasn't clear, any confusion is cleared up by the last sentence of the paragraph, which the Dimonds also removed. 

    Here's the full paragraph (bolded sentences are the two the Dimonds removed):
    Jurgens is a modernist, instrumental in the Novus Ordo mass, I would not quote him for anything, whether he agrees with me or not. In this case there is no mention of his quotes to show that "BOD is the tradition that in fact is there, and likely enough to be found so constant as to constitute revelation". Moreover, the dogmas on EENS are all very clearly against the idea that a non-Catholic can be saved. The dogmas clearly state that one must be a baptized Catholic in a state of grace to be saved. It is that simple.

    To say today the complete opposite: That a not baptized person that is not in a state of grace can miraculously baptize himself by an implicit desire of some kind and rid himself of his sins by some implicit desire or belief (Implicit faith in a god of some kind that rewards), is nothing short of ludicrous.