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Poll

Do you believe that there can be justification before actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism?

Yes
8 (33.3%)
No
16 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)  (Read 9391 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2021, 02:45:38 PM »
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  • I already stated in the hypothetical that no one will baptize her.  Take that to include I can't get ahold of anyone or those closest to her refuse to do it.  I want to address a hypothetical that is certainly possible in my situation.  
    She explicitly states her wish to be baptized but dies before receiving it.  Is she saved?  Anyone?
    It is dogma that the sacrament is necessary for salvation, which means answering according to the Church, the answer would be no.

    It is as Fr. Wathen puts it - "There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children". If she sincerely desires it, she will receive it - period. "Ask and you shall receive" is God's promise to us.

    "For every one that asketh, receiveth" - the Haydock says of this verse:
    Whatever we ask necessary to salvation with humility, fervour, perseverance, and other due circuмstances, we may be assured God will grant when it is best for us. If we do not obtain what we pray for, we must suppose it is not conducive to our salvation, in comparison of which all else is of little moment.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #31 on: February 20, 2021, 02:51:46 PM »
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  • Isn't the whole motivation behind BOD the horror of realizing that most people (assuming even that the Novus Ordo sect is on the path to salvation, which it is not) are damned?  If we count everyone who thinks they are Catholic as being saved, that means at least 85% (1 billion nominal Catholics / 7 billion total population = less than 15%).  But not all nominal Catholics are saved (Joe Biden?  Was the sodomite "Cardinal" Bernardin saved?).  How many Conciliarists openly deny dogmas of the Faith?  They are legion.  If we count only traditionalists as being saved (along with some incredibly ignorant but good-hearted conciliarists) we are talking somewhere in the 1 to 2% range.  But not even all traditionalists are saved.  Don't we all know at least a few traditionalists who are constantly committing mortal sins (especially of the flesh)?  And how many of them openly deny at least some of the dogmas of the Faith?  I'm thinking especially of EENS.  BOD is hardly the starting point of these controversies.  When it comes right down to it, most traditionalists are unwilling to give assent to an unqualified declaration of EENS.  But we are not bound by anything other than the literal words of the doctrine.  Most trads will only give assent to it if they can add a qualifier on to it which nullifies the literal meaning of the dogma.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #32 on: February 20, 2021, 02:53:56 PM »
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  • I already stated in the hypothetical that no one will baptize her.  Take that to include I can't get ahold of anyone or those closest to her refuse to do it.  I want to address a hypothetical that is certainly possible in my situation.  
    She explicitly states her wish to be baptized but dies before receiving it.  Is she saved?  Anyone?
    Call the local police department and ask to speak to a Catholic officer.  Have that officer do a welfare check and then baptize her.  She will not be saved unless she is baptized with water.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #33 on: February 20, 2021, 03:04:09 PM »
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  • Stubborn is right.  If someone really wants to be baptized no one will be able to stop God from doing it.  But if someone expresses a desire to be baptized and we don't do everything in our power to make it happen, we will be sorry.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #34 on: February 20, 2021, 03:16:17 PM »
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  • Isn't the whole motivation behind BOD the horror of realizing that most people (assuming even that the Novus Ordo sect is on the path to salvation, which it is not) are damned? 
    Yes, indeed this seems to be the case--BOD is a theology drawn from fallen human sentiment, not reason applied to public revelation.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #35 on: February 20, 2021, 07:49:03 PM »
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  • I voted no because:

    The term Justification as used in Trent has three inseparable fruits; remission of sin, sanctifying grace, and renewal (the character). This cannot be be had without the sacrament of baptism.

    I believe justification with a small j means something a bit different. A person can be justified or released from eternal punishments due to personal (actual) sin. Contrition for sin with the will to confess and atone seems the same to me as the Old Testament saints who were justified but obviously not sanctified. I also believe the ontology (I think economy is a better word here) of Salvation is consistent, our poor use of the same word for similar but distinct conditions is to blame for confusion and argument.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #36 on: February 20, 2021, 10:51:04 PM »
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  • Quote
    our poor use of the same word for similar but distinct conditions is to blame for confusion and argument.
    You can say that a 1000x!  Great point.  How many quarrels happen because of miscommunications and poor/lazy/incorrect theological terms???  Or just bad grammar.  That’s about 80% of this site. 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #37 on: February 21, 2021, 09:43:00 AM »
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  • Stubborn is right.  If someone really wants to be baptized no one will be able to stop God from doing it.  But if someone expresses a desire to be baptized and we don't do everything in our power to make it happen, we will be sorry.
    Yes, this.

    God's Providence is consistently the missing link in *all* BOD/BOB ideas, scenarios, and all the other teachings on it. Because with it, a BOD can never happen, just as without it, the sacrament can never happen.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #38 on: February 21, 2021, 11:02:31 AM »
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  • I do not believe a Pre-Baptismal Justification can be anything other than a Baptism of Desire, i.e. Baptism in voto. Since Baptism, at least in the desire thereof, is necessary for Justification, it is impossible to obtain Justification without a Desire (Voto) for the Sacrament.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #39 on: February 28, 2021, 09:04:22 PM »
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  • "X cannot be effected without A or B".

    As has been shown, the text alone DOES NOT NECESSARILY REQUIRE both A and B.

    You are most certainly imposing your interpretation on the text.
    If I may,
    and please be patient. I'm only trying to help.

    This passage from Trent really divides the "wheat from the chaff". The only way to misunderstand it is an act of will.

    The first analogy Stanley chose had two mutually exclusive variables, driving or walking. The will blocked the intellect here and it was passed off in his head as a logical equivalent.

    The next attempt to deconstruct the dogma was use of a grammatical simplification as you see above but it fails as it implies no relationship between the variables A and B. This was also pushed past the intellect as an act of the will with the added audacity to declare Stubborn as guilty of bad will!

    The two variables are indeed connected as evidenced in the passage itself and just a basic understanding of the Sacraments. First, the Fathers at Trent used the term "laver of regeneration" to express something less than baptism; the form and matter of the sacrament, minus the intention. The second indication of an inseparable link between the variables is the immediate scriptural support that is John 3.5 ("unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost....")

    Every Catholic needing an analogy concerning this passage should immediately think Sacraments! 
    Confirmation cannot be effected without the signing of chrism and the will to be confirmed.
    Holy orders cannot be effected without the laying on of hands and the will...
    Extremunction cannot be effected without the signing with oil and the desire....

    What Trent says is "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the form and matter, or the intent thereof,..." This is not interpretation, it is merely a translation into American from English. Trent is stating unequivocally, form, matter, and intent are necessary for Justification. 

    Rather than being a support for BOD, Chapter IV of the 6th Session of the Council of Trent disallows it. 

    The consequences of thinking Trent says otherwise brings us to where we are today. If the form and matter of the Sacraments are irrelevant, then the priesthood is irrelevant when you want Communion or Penance. A man and woman aren't necessary when you want a marriage. Etc, etc.

    If you still disagree with me, please pray with the intention for faith, for yourself or for me. Someone here needs it bad.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #40 on: March 01, 2021, 04:50:09 AM »
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  • I agree with Stanley. And, as some others also said, let's not keep accusing others of "bad will" unnecessarily. Unless any of us are divinely appointed Holy Inquisitors, and I don't think we are, it's not for us to unduly cast aspersions on the internal state of other professing Catholics. Let's debate and discuss in a proper manner, and explain and express our own conscientious Catholic convictions, so that we can all arrive at the Truth, and always with Charity for one other. Truth means nothing without Charity, just as Faith without Works is dead. Truth is important of course, but Truth in Charity always.

    Quote from: Joe Z
    Quote from: Joe Z If I may, and please be patient. I'm only trying to help.

    Joe, the example you give, "Confirmation cannot be effected without the signing of chrism and the will to be confirmed."

    But firstly, (1) it doesn't say "AND" in Trent, but "OR". I gave three examples of this on another thread "I cannot quench my thirst without water or juice". The implication is, as I can quench my thirst through water, so can I do also through juice. Would you disagree?

    (2) Secondly, Trent uses the specific term voto, in reference only to Three Sacraments, Baptism, Penance and the Eucharist. Do you agree that in reference to both Penance and the Eucharist, it is talking of Perfect Contrition, and Spiritual Communion respectively? If you do, then why do you deny that with reference to Baptism alone, it refers to BOD? Trent is not talking about a natural disposition, but a supernatural desire when it uses the term voto. Trent later says "the eternal punishment is always taken away, either by the Sacrament, OR by the desire of the Sacrament" with reference to Penance. Here we see "OR" and not "AND" to indicate both remit sins.

    (3) Thirdly, why don't we find anywhere in Trent such a statement with reference to Confirmation/Priesthood/Marriage/Unction? Why don't we find "without the Priesthood, or without the desire thereof, Mass cannot be offered" for e.g. Every Sacrament after all requires the will to receive it, even the Priesthood. Since there is no voto for the Priesthood, Trent simply says things like "Without the Priesthood, Mass cannot be offered". If it had meant to exclude Baptism of Desire, it would have said "Without the laver of regeneration, justification cannot be effected". But rather it said, in effect, "Without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof", no justification.

    Quote
    Quote If you still disagree with me, please pray with the intention for faith, for yourself or for me.
    I agree, as LT also said in one of the prayer threads, we should pray for another in spite of our differences. We are all Catholics here. If we cannot even get along with other Catholics who all agree at least 99% with each other, who will we get along with? Let's put our point across and debate and discuss vigorously, but let's do so with charity, and always making allowance as far as we can for the good faith of others.

    God Bless.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #41 on: March 01, 2021, 08:46:02 AM »
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  • Quote
    This is not interpretation, it is merely a translation into American from English. Trent is stating unequivocally, form, matter, and intent are necessary for Justification.
    Ding, ding, ding!  We have a winner.
    .
    Xavier, Stanley and others look at this sentence with a microscope and analyze the "or" phrase to death, meanwhile their new interpretation is uncatholic and doesn't jive with all the rest of Trent's teachings.  They miss the forest for the trees. 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #42 on: March 01, 2021, 09:52:22 AM »
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  • Quote
    This is not interpretation, it is merely a translation into American from English. Trent is stating unequivocally, form, matter, and intent are necessary for Justification.
    Ding, ding, ding!  We have a winner.
    .
    Xavier, Stanley and others look at this sentence with a microscope and analyze the "or" phrase to death, meanwhile their new interpretation is uncatholic and doesn't jive with all the rest of Trent's teachings.  They miss the forest for the trees.
    Usually, when talking about "matter form and intent", the "intent" is in the minister. On the other hand, when talking of "votum", the "votum" is usually viewed in the recipient. Where do you think it is?

    What I said was quite limited, that the phrase "without A or B" could be interpreted two ways, grammatically.  Ladislaus recognizes that, and he has some expertise on Latin grammar. If you resolve those options to one, then you're using something outside the grammar.

    And that's it, just a statement about grammar. It's not complicated. It's not a challenge to anyone's faith. If you have 5 arguments for some assertion, it shouldn't challenge anyone's faith to say one of those arguments doesn't prove the assertion.

    There are none so blind as those who WILL not see.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #43 on: March 01, 2021, 10:09:44 AM »
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  • Quote
    Usually, when talking about "matter form and intent", the "intent" is in the minister. On the other hand, when talking of "votum" in regard to baptism, it is in the recipient. Which is it here, or is it something else?

    In the context of history, in the 1500s, Trent's use of "intent" was two-fold.  The intent of the minister is always necessary.  But when talking of justification, the use of intent is obviously related to the recipient of the sacrament.
    .
    Further, Trent was condemning the idea that one could be "forced" to be baptized, a real-life problem that was happening during the protestant chaos.  So, Trent was making it clear that one had to WANT to be baptized, for the sacrament to happen.
    .
    This is further corroborated when you look at the rest of the Trent's anathemas on baptism.  Trent condemns all kinds of "scruples" related to sacramental validity.  Many of these scruples are in relation to the recipient.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #44 on: March 01, 2021, 11:24:44 AM »
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  • In the context of history, in the 1500s, Trent's use of "intent" was two-fold.  The intent of the minister is always necessary.  But when talking of justification, the use of intent is obviously related to the recipient of the sacrament.
    So you really think this phrase from Trent meant both the intent of un unstated minister and the intent of the subject were required for justification, and that no exception or substitution is possible?