I agree with Stanley. And, as some others also said, let's not keep accusing others of "bad will" unnecessarily. Unless any of us are divinely appointed Holy Inquisitors, and I don't think we are, it's not for us to unduly cast aspersions on the internal state of other professing Catholics. Let's debate and discuss in a proper manner, and explain and express our own conscientious Catholic convictions, so that we can all arrive at the Truth, and always with Charity for one other. Truth means nothing without Charity, just as Faith without Works is dead. Truth is important of course, but Truth in Charity always.
Quote from: Joe Z If I may, and please be patient. I'm only trying to help.
Joe, the example you give, "Confirmation cannot be effected without the signing of chrism and the will to be confirmed."
But firstly, (1) it doesn't say "AND" in Trent, but "OR". I gave three examples of this on another thread "I cannot quench my thirst without water or juice". The implication is, as I can quench my thirst through water, so can I do also through juice. Would you disagree?
(2) Secondly, Trent uses the specific term
voto, in reference only to Three Sacraments, Baptism, Penance and the Eucharist. Do you agree that in reference to both Penance and the Eucharist, it is talking of Perfect Contrition, and Spiritual Communion respectively? If you do, then why do you deny that with reference to Baptism alone, it refers to BOD? Trent is not talking about a natural disposition, but a supernatural desire when it uses the term voto. Trent later says "
the eternal punishment is always taken away, either by the Sacrament, OR by the desire of the Sacrament" with reference to Penance. Here we see "OR" and not "AND" to indicate both remit sins.
(3) Thirdly, why don't we find anywhere in Trent such a statement with reference to Confirmation/Priesthood/Marriage/Unction? Why don't we find "without the Priesthood, or without the desire thereof, Mass cannot be offered" for e.g. Every Sacrament after all requires the will to receive it, even the Priesthood. Since there is no
voto for the Priesthood, Trent simply says things like "Without the Priesthood, Mass cannot be offered". If it had meant to exclude Baptism of Desire, it would have said "Without the laver of regeneration, justification cannot be effected". But rather it said, in effect, "
Without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof", no justification.
Quote If you still disagree with me, please pray with the intention for faith, for yourself or for me.
I agree, as LT also said in one of the prayer threads, we should pray for another in spite of our differences. We are all Catholics here. If we cannot even get along with other Catholics who all agree at least 99% with each other, who will we get along with? Let's put our point across and debate and discuss vigorously, but let's do so with charity, and always making allowance as far as we can for the good faith of others.
God Bless.