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Do you believe that there can be justification before actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism?

Yes
8 (33.3%)
No
16 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)  (Read 9394 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
« Reply #105 on: March 06, 2021, 07:29:52 AM »
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  •  
    "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; ...let him be anathema". This means what it says. A BOD makes the reception of the sacrament not necessary, i.e. superfluous.

    This canon is saying the same thing that is repeated in the other canons - there is no contradiction among Trent's teachings. Trent is clearly saying the sacraments are necessary for salvation and they are saying it in a sine qua non sense, i.e. no sacrament = no salvation.

    To say a BOD saves is saying exactly what Trent condemns in the above canon for the simple reason that a BOD is not a sacrament, therefore it can never save anyone.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but BODers, while reading Trent, necessarily must say within themselves a lot, "it doesn't mean that", and "what they really mean is _____" But when understood as it is written, it does mean that, always has, always will because it means what it says.    
     

    Speaking of exactly what Trent says, I was reading a discussion I was involved in on another site, and in the midst of the discussion (which I had forgotten) this bσɱbshell:


    Quote
    Let's turn now to the text of Trent:

    Text: Quae quidem translatio post Evengelium promulgatum sine lavacro regenerationis, aut eius voto fieri non potest, sicut scriptum est: <<Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu Sancto, non potest introire in regnum Dei.>>

    Translation: Indeed, after the promulgation of the Gospel, this translation [from original sin to the state of grace], cannot take place except through the laver of regeneration, or if one cannot receive it, a desire for it [i.e. the laver]; as it says in Scripture, "unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    Commentary: Trent uses the exclusive disjunction "aut" because of the phrase "fuerit non potest." Although baptism and the desire for baptism aren't mutually exclusive, receiving baptism and not being able to receive baptism are.

    The phrase "fieri non potest" is the key. The translator above later revised his translation to read, "or if this is not possible." Thus:


    Quote
    Indeed, after the promulgation of the Gospel, this translation [from original sin to the state of grace], cannot take place except through the laver of regeneration, or if this is not possible, a desire for it [i.e. the laver]; as it says in Scripture, "unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    I went back and checked the Latin, and indeed the Council of Trent in the text at issue in Session VI, Chapter 4 says "fieri non potest."

    If this doesn't explode the argument that the "aut" in Trent is conjunctive - meaning that the water of baptism and the desire for it are both necessary, I don't know what does.  Trent says that one may be justified from the curse of Adam's sin to a state of grace in Christ by water baptism or, "fieri non potest" ("if not possible"), the desire for baptism.

    I'll wait to hear why this argument - BASED ON TRENT AS WRITTEN - doesn't hold water (no pun intended).




    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #106 on: March 06, 2021, 08:16:18 AM »
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  • That this bσɱbshell translation is bad should be obvious, the only way it would not be obvious is if *all* of Trent's other teachings on the sacrament are completely ignored.

    If one person can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, then all people can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, which makes, as Trent condemns, the sacraments themselves superfluous. Prove me wrong.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #107 on: March 06, 2021, 08:21:59 AM »
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  • That this bσɱbshell translation is bad should be obvious, the only way it would not be obvious is if *all* of Trent's other teachings on the sacrament are completely ignored.

    If one person can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, then all people can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, which makes, as Trent condemns, the sacraments themselves superfluous. Prove me wrong.

    Ok, Stubborn, what do you say "fieri non potest" means then? After all, that is what the passage says, as written.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #108 on: March 06, 2021, 08:38:19 AM »
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  • Ok, Stubborn, what do you say "fieri non potest" means then? After all, that is what the passage says, as written.
    Who knows? BODers keep searching and seeking for what they believe - so those three Latin words may as well mean "that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous".

    I do not believe any BODer can possibly disagree with this.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #109 on: March 06, 2021, 08:44:57 AM »
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  • That this bσɱbshell translation is bad should be obvious, the only way it would not be obvious is if *all* of Trent's other teachings on the sacrament are completely ignored.

    If one person can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, then all people can be saved through a BOD without the sacraments, which makes, as Trent condemns, the sacraments themselves superfluous. Prove me wrong.

    Ok. Again - I mentioned this earlier regarding "superfluous" - let's look at the actual language of Trent. 

    Canon 5 from Session VII on the sacraments says:


    Quote
    Si quis dixerit, baptismum liberum esse, hoc est non necessarium ad salutem: anathema sit. 

    The translation of Denzinger that I am now looking at (edition 43 edited by Peter Hunermann), translates this as: 


    Quote
    If anyone says that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema.


    The key word here is "liberum," translated as "optional." As Trent says, this word liberum/optional is itself glossed, "hoc est non necessarium," or "that is, not necessary."

    "Liberum" comes from "liber," and I believe is being used in the sense of "free or exempt from," - Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, līber (tufts.edu)

    As you can see from reading the passage "as written," "not necessary" is being equated with optional or free or voluntary, as if the sacrament of baptism can be dispensed with because of, e.g, the truth that justification can come from a "desire for the sacrament." 

    That is what is condemned by Trent "as written;" that is the type of "necessity" Trent speaks of baptism as having: it is not optional, or something one can forego as not necessary.

    This is a discussion in search of truth, and I'm no Latinist, so I welcome correction or another view.  

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #110 on: March 06, 2021, 08:45:34 AM »
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  • Who knows? BODers keep searching and seeking for what they believe - so those three Latin words may as well mean "that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous".

    I do not believe any BODer can possibly disagree with this.

    Non-responsive. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #111 on: March 06, 2021, 09:25:24 AM »
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  • Ok. Again - I mentioned this earlier regarding "superfluous" - let's look at the actual language of Trent.

    Canon 5 from Session VII on the sacraments says:


    The translation of Denzinger that I am now looking at (edition 43 edited by Peter Hunermann), translates this as:



    The key word here is "liberum," translated as "optional." As Trent says, this word liberum/optional is itself glossed, "hoc est non necessarium," or "that is, not necessary."

    "Liberum" comes from "liber," and I believe is being used in the sense of "free or exempt from," - Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, līber (tufts.edu)

    As you can see from reading the passage "as written," "not necessary" is being equated with optional or free or voluntary, as if the sacrament of baptism can be dispensed with because of, e.g, the truth that justification can come from a "desire for the sacrament."

    That is what is condemned by Trent "as written;" that is the type of "necessity" Trent speaks of baptism as having: it is not optional, or something one can forego as not necessary.

    This is a discussion in search of truth, and I'm no Latinist, so I welcome correction or another view.  
    Not sure I understand you correctly, Do you believe the original Latin is saying opposite of what is translated in Denzinger? IOW, you believe it says that "baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation"? Is that what you are saying?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #112 on: March 06, 2021, 10:21:10 AM »
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  • Correct me if I am wrong, but BODers, while reading Trent, necessarily must say within themselves a lot, "it doesn't mean that", and "what they really mean is _____" But when understood as it is written, it does mean that, always has, always will because it means what it says.  
    Yep, if the dogmas do not mean what they say, then whatever the BODers say means nothing. If I need an interpreter for dogma, then dogma is worthless.

    Anyhow, they have a ton of hurdles to make besides that one point, and they'll do the same with those hurdles.


    Quote
    Foundation & Objective of False BODers like XavierSem

    The foundation of the never-ending, incessant, creation of threads on BOD by False BODers like XavierSem, is their disbelief that un-baptized nice people are damned. They must find an answer to that disbelief, they are obsessed by this disbelief, and so they seek teachers according to their own desires. Here is that honest admission by the late Fr. Cekada R.I.P.:

    Quote
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”


    (* I am not talking about a believer in the strict BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas, for that is a harmless theory. The few BODers who limit their belief to the catechumen of St. Thomas are rare, and never have I seen one start a thread, or write a book or article on the subject. Why? Because numerically speaking, it applies to no one, if compared to the billions who have perished since the time of the new covenant.)

    The Objective

    The objective of the false BODer is to send an un-baptized non-Catholic person to heaven:

    1)  without the sacrament of baptism
    2)  without the indelible mark
    3)  without the sacrament of penance
    4) without being a member of the Body
    5) without belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity
    6) even without any desire to be a Catholic, indeed, even while despising the Church, Christ, and the Trinity

    All the points above are hurdles, which the False BODer is obsseed with overcoming and for which he seeks teachers according to his own desire.



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #113 on: March 06, 2021, 10:25:34 AM »
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  • Not sure I understand you correctly, Do you believe the original Latin is saying opposite of what is translated in Denzinger? IOW, you believe it says that "baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation"? Is that what you are saying?
    It says that. However, it says anyone who says that is condemned ("anathema sit"). 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #114 on: March 06, 2021, 10:29:18 AM »
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  • Yep, if the dogmas do not mean what they say, then whatever the BODers say means nothing. If I need an interpreter for dogma, then dogma is worthless.

    Anyhow, they have a ton of hurdles to make besides that one point, and they'll do the same with those hurdles.

    What are you going on about?

    I am talking about precisely what it says. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #115 on: March 06, 2021, 10:49:17 AM »
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  • What are you going on about?
    You call one sentence "going on"?   I do not need an interpreter for dogma. 

    What flavor of BODer are you?  


    Quote
    The objective of the false BODer is to send an un-baptized non-Catholic person to heaven:
     
    1)  without the sacrament of baptism
    2)  without the indelible mark
    3)  without the sacrament of penance
    4) without being a member of the Body
    5) without belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity
    6) even without any desire to be a Catholic, indeed, even while despising the Church, Christ, and the Trinity
     
    All the points above are hurdles, which the False BODer is obsseed with overcoming and for which he seeks teachers according to his own desire.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #116 on: March 06, 2021, 10:49:41 AM »
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  • Ok. Again - I mentioned this earlier regarding "superfluous" - let's look at the actual language of Trent.

    Canon 5 from Session VII on the sacraments says:


    The translation of Denzinger that I am now looking at (edition 43 edited by Peter Hunermann), translates this as:



    The key word here is "liberum," translated as "optional." As Trent says, this word liberum/optional is itself glossed, "hoc est non necessarium," or "that is, not necessary."

    "Liberum" comes from "liber," and I believe is being used in the sense of "free or exempt from," - Charlton T. Lewis, Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, līber (tufts.edu)

    As you can see from reading the passage "as written," "not necessary" is being equated with optional or free or voluntary, as if the sacrament of baptism can be dispensed with because of, e.g, the truth that justification can come from a "desire for the sacrament."

    That is what is condemned by Trent "as written;" that is the type of "necessity" Trent speaks of baptism as having: it is not optional, or something one can forego as not necessary.

    This is a discussion in search of truth, and I'm no Latinist, so I welcome correction or another view.  

    I'd like to respond, but I'm not sure what you're saying.  I believe that ANY type of necessity would be contrasted with "optional".

    While Trent doesn't explicitly explain the type of necessity (absolute vs. relative, of means vs. of precept), I believe the unanimity of theologians hold that it's "absolutely necessary by necessity of means".  I believe that one of the Catechisms often cited in favor of BoD asserted that it was "absolutely" necessary.

    Even if it's absolutely necessary by necessity of means, there's still the question of whether that necessity is maintained by the theory that one can receive Baptism in voto.  After all, ...

    the Sacrament is necessary to be able to have the votum to receive it and
    the votum is necessary for justification

    So by kindof like a "transitive" logical property, it would still be necessary even in a BoD scenario.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #117 on: March 06, 2021, 11:40:10 AM »
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  • I'd like to respond, but I'm not sure what you're saying.  I believe that ANY type of necessity would be contrasted with "optional".

    Very good. So even "necessity" in the sense of St. Thomas in the Summa (see my post #106 above) would fit. Supports my point contra the argument - posed by Stubborn based on the text "as written" sans the commentary of theologians for example - that the necessity here is a sine qua non necessity. 

    While Trent doesn't explicitly explain the type of necessity (absolute vs. relative, of means vs. of precept), I believe the unanimity of theologians hold that it's "absolutely necessary by necessity of means".  I believe that one of the Catechisms often cited in favor of BoD asserted that it was "absolutely" necessary.

    Sure. I am exploring the type of necessity being spoken of by looking at the language of Trent itself. I think it's a dangerous stance for the Feeneyite position to look to theologians in support: the same theologians who speak of "necessity of means" regarding baptism virtually unanimously read Trent as speaking of a "desire" for baptism as sufficing for justification. 

    And as to necessity of means, I want to modify something I said earlier: the only time I am aware of the Magisterium using "necessity of means" is in on the issue of faith - namely, a decision of the Holy Office on the Trinity and I believe the incarnation as being necessary as a necessity of means for supernatural faith. Nothing in that regard from the Magisterium on baptism that I'm aware of. 


    Even if it's absolutely necessary by necessity of means, there's still the question of whether that necessity is maintained by the theory that one can receive Baptism in voto.  After all, ...

    the Sacrament is necessary to be able to have the votum to receive it and
    the votum is necessary for justification

    So by kindof like a "transitive" logical property, it would still be necessary even in a BoD scenario.

    I agree, and have taken that position on this forum myself: for something to be desired it must exist (and be in the consciousness of the one desiring) to motivate the desire That is not part of my discussion with Stubborn. 

    My response in red. 

    Lad, I am interested in your response to the language in Trent regarding desire for baptism sufficing for justification if the sacrament "fieri non potest" (see post #111 above.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #118 on: March 06, 2021, 12:19:54 PM »
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  • Speaking of exactly what Trent says, I was reading a discussion I was involved in on another site, and in the midst of the discussion (which I had forgotten) this bσɱbshell:


    The phrase "fieri non potest" is the key. The translator above later revised his translation to read, "or if this is not possible." Thus:


    I went back and checked the Latin, and indeed the Council of Trent in the text at issue in Session VI, Chapter 4 says "fieri non potest."

    If this doesn't explode the argument that the "aut" in Trent is conjunctive - meaning that the water of baptism and the desire for it are both necessary, I don't know what does.  Trent says that one may be justified from the curse of Adam's sin to a state of grace in Christ by water baptism or, "fieri non potest" ("if not possible"), the desire for baptism.

    I'll wait to hear why this argument - BASED ON TRENT AS WRITTEN - doesn't hold water (no pun intended).

    This deserves a massive facepalm.  potest fieri is the main verb of the sentence, having translatio for its subject, and is not in some kind of subordinate clause like si fieri potest.  Oh, for crying out loud.  Talk about desperation (and ignorance of Latin) from a rabid BoDer.  [Unless that was a typo, he also botched the very conjugation when citing it later.]

    This shows the danger of what happens when you have an idiot (vis-a-vis the Latin language) with a pocket Latin dictionary.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pre-Baptismal Justification (for those who do not believe in BoD)
    « Reply #119 on: March 06, 2021, 02:27:45 PM »
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  • This deserves a massive facepalm.  potest fieri is the main verb of the sentence, having translatio for its subject, and is not in some kind of subordinate clause like si fieri potest.  Oh, for crying out loud.  Talk about desperation (and ignorance of Latin) from a rabid BoDer.  [Unless that was a typo, he also botched the very conjugation when citing it later.]

    This shows the danger of what happens when you have an idiot (vis-a-vis the Latin language) with a pocket Latin dictionary.

    Lad,

    So, if I understand you, what you are saying is that the translation is not possible ("fieri non potest") without . . .  Correct?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.