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Author Topic: Possibly falling into despair depression  (Read 29785 times)

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Offline Cera

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Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
« Reply #120 on: February 17, 2025, 03:36:39 PM »
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  • International Center for Law and Religion Studies




    Court dismisses suit seeking return of large donations to monastery

    Howard Friedman, Religion Clause
    In Hoyle v. Dimond, (WD NY, June 22, 2012), a New York federal district court dismissed fraud, misrepresentation, RICO, deceptive practices, false advertising and equitable claims by plaintiff Eric Hoyle who was seeking return of part or all of the over $1 million that he had donated to the Most Holy Family Monastery (MHFM).  Hoyle, who rejected his Protestant faith, became a “traditional” Catholic and joined MHFM in 2005 in part because it was consistent with his beliefs that rejected  the Vatican II changes to the Catholic Church and did not recognize post-Vatican II Popes as valid. In 2007, Hoyle left MHFM and set up his own website condemning it as heretical.  In his lawsuit, Hoyle asserted that MHFM had misrepresented its historical connections to the Benedictine Order, which her relied on in choosing it. The court concluded:
    … [E]ach of plaintiff’s claims is based on his assertion that the defendants misrepresented their status as Benedictine monks and the affiliation of MHFM with the Order of Saint Benedict.  Questions regarding the establishment of MHFM as a Benedictine community and its current identification as a “traditional” Catholic Benedictine monastery are matters of religious doctrine over which the court has no jurisdiction.  Moreover, plaintiff has failed to raise a genuine issue of material fact regarding the establishment of MHFM.


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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #121 on: February 17, 2025, 03:40:37 PM »
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  • Listen to someone who left after realizing the Dimonds are a cult.

    During my 7 years (2011-2018) with MHFM, I zealously participated in the dissemination of their evangelical material. But in 2018, after several relevant pastoral, human relationship, and theological issues / questions remained unresolved / unanswered by the Dimonds, after repeatedly warning them, I became convinced that severing ties with them was legitimate, in order, and completely justified.

    http://la-foi.fr/mhfm/en/index.aspx
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #122 on: February 17, 2025, 03:41:03 PM »
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  •  I just purchased the MHFM complete $20 package with all their videos and books. One of the books is called "Outside The Catholic Church There is Absolutely No Salvation."

    He makes some very interesting points. But yet I  have talked to traditonal clergy and they disagree with MFHM so I really do not know who to believe.
    Dimond Brothers are NOT religious brothers, nor do they have a monastary.

    Canon Law: The Dimond brothers are not monks and their monastery is no monastery (9-29-16)

    Many who read what is available on this site comment that while they do not agree with the position held by Michael and Peter Dimond, operators of what is known as Most Holy Family Monastery (MHFM), they often visit their site because these purported “monks” have good information. A “position,” i.e., an allowable opinion by Church standards would be one thing. But here we are dealing with heresy, and heresy condemned as such by Pope Pius XII, (Feeneyism). It is not “okay” to visit the sites of known heretics, even if they present some things that are interesting or even unique, lest we cooperate in their heresy. While sometimes it is necessary to the truth to include some of these sites in research pieces, they should always be disavowed (and are on this site) and never recommended.

    Belloc’s formula for establishing the existence of heresy
    Heretics are very clever. They disguise their errors by carefully weaving them into a fabric consisting mainly of truthful statements, the better to lure them in, and this is how they deceive the unwary. In the Introduction to his work, The Great Heresies, (1920s) the respected Catholic historian Hilaire Belloc provides the following components of heretical perversity. “Heresy means…the warping of a system by ‘exception’: by ‘picking out’ one part of the structure and implies that the scheme is marred by taking away one part of it, denying one part of it, and either leaving the void unfilled or filling it with some new affirmation.
    “The denial of a scheme wholesale is not heresy, and has not the creative power of a heresy. It is of the essence of heresy that it leaves standing a great part of the structure it attacks. It is the taking away from the moral scheme by which we have lived of a particular part, the denial of that part and the attempt to replace it by an innovation.”

    It is very tempting, when one sees that “a great part of it” is right, to then be convinced that a few little errors may not matter and these folks are not so bad after all, just misguided. But that would be a grave error in judgment. Like all Traditionalists, MHFM has “plucked” the papacy from their midst and have denied not only the papacy but also the dogma of baptism of blood and desire, following the heretic Leonard Feeney. They then pose the innovation by setting themselves up as the true authority. According to Wikipedia, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_Holy_Family_Monastery):

    “Most Holy Family Monastery was founded in 1967, in Berlin, New Jersey, by a self-proclaimed Benedictine monk named Joseph Natale (1933-1995), originally as a community for handicapped men. Natale entered the Benedictine Archabbey in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, in 1960 as a lay postulant, but left less than a year later to start his own Holy Family Monastery. According to an archivist of the Saint Vincent Archabbey in Latrobe, Natale left before taking vows; he never actually became a Benedictine monk.

    “Natale died in 1995, whereupon Michael Dimond (born Frederick Dimond), who joined in 1992 at the age of 19 after converting to Catholicism four years earlier was elected the Superior. Soon after, he relocated to Granger, New York (close to Fillmore, New York), where Natale owned more than 90 acres (36 ha) of donated land.”
    Canon Law contradicts MHFM and their followers

    https://www.betrayedcatholics.com/canon-law-the-dimond-brothers-are-not-monks-and-their-monastery-is-no-monastery-9-29-16/



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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #123 on: February 17, 2025, 04:08:13 PM »
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  • Dimond Brothers are NOT religious brothers, nor do they have a monastary.

    Canon Law: The Dimond brothers are not monks and their monastery is no monastery (9-29-16)

    That link is 100% trash and constitutes a misinterpretation of Canon Law, and we'll allow the charitable construction that it's due to their ignorance ... but in that case the poster had no business making the post.  Most of those Canons refer to ecclesiastical OFFICE, not religious profession, and there are other provisions that are not possible given the Crisis (such as submission to the Roman Pontiff).

    But if you look into the history of the Benedictines, they are actually TRADITIONALLY a non-centralized and non-hierarchical order, unique among religious Orders in that regard, where the individual houses actually maintain a certain amount of autonomy outside of submission to the Holy Father, which all Catholics must do anyway (as per Vatican I).  If certain congregations join up or coalesce or have some working relationship, it's voluntary, and there's no Benedictine "Superior General" or any other semblance of hierarchy.

    In fact during the Hoyle lawsuit, the Benedictine Mother House in Rome was consulted, and the representative reiterated the Traditional view that per the nature of the Benedictine Order anyone who professes to follow the Rule of St. Benedict can call themselves Benedictines.

    Brother Joseph Natale never having formally professed does not preclude him from having started another Benedictine Congregation, and his initial intention was to found one that accommodated men with disabilities, and then later it transformed into a Traditional house after the Council began to ravage the Church.  He went off to do this, in the spirit of the Benedictine Order, on his initiative and with no required formal relationship with his original monastery or permission from his "superior" at his original house.  He did this during the Vatican II era and before the Modernistic "reforms" had actually made their way out to impacting the lives of average Catholics.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #124 on: February 17, 2025, 04:15:35 PM »
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  • Many who read what is available on this site comment that while they do not agree with the position held by Michael and Peter Dimond, operators of what is known as Most Holy Family Monastery (MHFM), they often visit their site because these purported “monks” have good information. A “position,” i.e., an allowable opinion by Church standards would be one thing. But here we are dealing with heresy, and heresy condemned as such by Pope Pius XII, (Feeneyism). It is not “okay” to visit the sites of known heretics, even if they present some things that are interesting or even unique, lest we cooperate in their heresy. While sometimes it is necessary to the truth to include some of these sites in research pieces, they should always be disavowed (and are on this site) and never recommended.

    Now we get to the real impetus for slandering/smearing the Dimond Brothers, the poster's hatred for the "heresy" of Feeneyism.  Feeneyism is no heresy, and, although this took place technically during the "reign" of Roncali, the men who conducted it were in place during the time of Pius XII already, and they examined the work of Father Feeney and absolved him from any heresy.  No one has ever demonstrated that believing that those who lack Sacramental Baptism could be justified but not saved is heresy, and there's no Catholic dogma or even teaching that is contradicted by that position.

    Post-Tridentine theologians, including the highly-respected and approved Dominican Melchior Cano, held that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved, and the Council of Trent dealt with JUSTIFICATION, not salvation in the passages that the Cushingites rely on for their slander of heresy.

    We have a bunch of ignorant buffoons out there hating on the Dimond Brothers largely out of hatred for Catholic EENS dogma.

    Bottom line is that any Trad Catholic who holds that non-Catholics can be saved (regardless of the question regarding BoD proper) is a schismatic, since the entire Vatican II theological system, the ecclesiology, the subjectivist soteriology, they are all the logical consequences of such an ecclesiology, and you'll note that this question has nothing to do with BoD, and the only reason it factors in at all is because many EENS-haters constantly use it to deny EENS and hide behind it to justify their rejection of this thrice-defined dogma.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #125 on: February 17, 2025, 04:17:28 PM »
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  • Listen to someone who left after realizing the Dimonds are a cult.

    During my 7 years (2011-2018) with MHFM, I zealously participated in the dissemination of their evangelical material. But in 2018, after several relevant pastoral, human relationship, and theological issues / questions remained unresolved / unanswered by the Dimonds, after repeatedly warning them, I became convinced that severing ties with them was legitimate, in order, and completely justified.

    http://la-foi.fr/mhfm/en/index.aspx

    No, those are the ones people should LEAST listen to, because they are not objective, have personal contempt for the Dimond Brothers, like many EENS-haters do, and so they restor to slander and spin everything they can in a negative light against the Brothers.

    Please stop spamming your slanders against the Dimond Brothers on this forum.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #126 on: February 17, 2025, 04:19:24 PM »
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  • Yes. Keep your mouth shut unless you are asked to do something immoral.
     There is a time and place for everything.

    What's the point of addressing a post written in 2011, 14 years ago now?

    I see that someone necro-bumped this thread, which had died years ago, and maybe you didn't notice, but I doubt the person is in the same state that they were in back then.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #127 on: February 17, 2025, 05:14:17 PM »
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  • Young people need to realize that they need to make new friends that share the same Christian values.  There are meet ups.  Maybe they can create thread in members only thread to meet up after mass for a hike or other activities.  Maybe game night Catholic monopoly or Catholic categories. 



    May God bless you and keep you
    +RIP 11/14/25
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline PhilIntrate

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 04:02:30 PM »
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  • But if you look into the history of the Benedictines, they are actually TRADITIONALLY a non-centralized and non-hierarchical order, unique among religious Orders in that regard, where the individual houses actually maintain a certain amount of autonomy outside of submission to the Holy Father, which all Catholics must do anyway (as per Vatican I).  If certain congregations join up or coalesce or have some working relationship, it's voluntary, and there's no Benedictine "Superior General" or any other semblance of hierarchy.

    In fact during the Hoyle lawsuit, the Benedictine Mother House in Rome was consulted, and the representative reiterated the Traditional view that per the nature of the Benedictine Order anyone who professes to follow the Rule of St. Benedict can call themselves Benedictines.

    Brother Joseph Natale never having formally professed does not preclude him from having started another Benedictine Congregation, and his initial intention was to found one that accommodated men with disabilities, and then later it transformed into a Traditional house after the Council began to ravage the Church.  He went off to do this, in the spirit of the Benedictine Order, on his initiative and with no required formal relationship with his original monastery or permission from his "superior" at his original house.  He did this during the Vatican II era and before the Modernistic "reforms" had actually made their way out to impacting the lives of average Catholics.
    The fact that Benedictine Monasteries are autonomous does not mean that any lay person can start a monastery and become a monk on their own volition.  Although the Benedictine order doesn't bind them to any law, they are still bound by canon law and divine law.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 04:53:31 PM »
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  • Bottom line is that any Trad Catholic who holds that non-Catholics can be saved (regardless of the question regarding BoD proper) is a schismatic, since the entire Vatican II theological system, the ecclesiology, the subjectivist soteriology, they are all the logical consequences of such an ecclesiology, and you'll note that this question has nothing to do with BoD, and the only reason it factors in at all is because many EENS-haters constantly use it to deny EENS and hide behind it to justify their rejection of this thrice-defined dogma.

    As for your arguments, "transeo" (I will pass over for now).

    ...but even in a worst-case, it would still be better than being a Dimondite.
    Specifically, even as a "schismatic" you would have a better chance of salvation than someone who follows the Dimond brothers.

    Of course I'm half joking here -- strictly speaking, you aren't "more likely" to go to Hell for murder vs. sins of the flesh. They will both get the job done. I'm just making a point here.

    I hope you're not defending the Dimond brothers just because they happen to agree with you on BoD, EENS, etc.

    Don't forget that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 04:59:00 PM »
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  • P.S. This has got to be the oldest CURRENTLY ACTIVE thread on CathInfo.
    Started 14+ years ago, and still going?

    There are ADULTS today, including on CathInfo, who hadn't lost their first tooth yet, when this thread was created!
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
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    Offline Justinian

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 05:23:39 PM »
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  • P.S. This has got to be the oldest CURRENTLY ACTIVE thread on CathInfo.
    Started 14+ years ago, and still going?

    There are ADULTS today, including on CathInfo, who hadn't lost their first tooth yet, when this thread was created!
    I notice the original poster hasn’t been active since 2012. I hope he is ok as seemed to be having quite a hard time with internal struggles.

    He would be 37 now. 

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 05:58:39 PM »
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  • ...but even in a worst-case, it would still be better than being a Dimondite.
    Specifically, even as a "schismatic" you would have a better chance of salvation than someone who follows the Dimond brothers.
    Anyone who "follows" someone other than Christ is a fool, "Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I am of Cephas; and I of Christ."




    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #133 on: Today at 06:30:30 AM »
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  • I have this desire to preach to everyone I see about the true catholic religion, vatican II, and sedevacantism.

    Right now I am unemployed, but this desire could get me fired in the workplace. For example, lets say I am in the corporate world and my boss is a contracepting protestant heretic like the majority of america. What if I told him one day, "hey Boss, I like you as a person but I gotta tell you something for your own good: you are in a false religion and you are on the road to hell."

    If I said that I would get fired ASAP and I could never keep a job in this economy. So what am I supposed to do, keep my mouth shut and hide from the truth??
    Its so incredibly strange to me that people get offended by this kind of thing. You aren't wrong, they will, but its just foreign to me.  Its my autism I guess, lol.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Possibly falling into despair depression
    « Reply #134 on: Today at 06:36:18 AM »
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  • Now we get to the real impetus for slandering/smearing the Dimond Brothers, the poster's hatred for the "heresy" of Feeneyism.  Feeneyism is no heresy, and, although this took place technically during the "reign" of Roncali, the men who conducted it were in place during the time of Pius XII already, and they examined the work of Father Feeney and absolved him from any heresy.  No one has ever demonstrated that believing that those who lack Sacramental Baptism could be justified but not saved is heresy, and there's no Catholic dogma or even teaching that is contradicted by that position.

    Post-Tridentine theologians, including the highly-respected and approved Dominican Melchior Cano, held that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved, and the Council of Trent dealt with JUSTIFICATION, not salvation in the passages that the Cushingites rely on for their slander of heresy.

    We have a bunch of ignorant buffoons out there hating on the Dimond Brothers largely out of hatred for Catholic EENS dogma.

    Bottom line is that any Trad Catholic who holds that non-Catholics can be saved (regardless of the question regarding BoD proper) is a schismatic, since the entire Vatican II theological system, the ecclesiology, the subjectivist soteriology, they are all the logical consequences of such an ecclesiology, and you'll note that this question has nothing to do with BoD, and the only reason it factors in at all is because many EENS-haters constantly use it to deny EENS and hide behind it to justify their rejection of this thrice-defined dogma.
    I know I'm sort of an outsider just commenting out of academic curiosity at this point, but this was never exactly why I had a problem with them, even though I disagreed on this issue.  I never had the same problems with you, or with St Benedict Center.  

    I think where the Dimonds get really clowny is they start condemning specific individuals, including Catholic indivduals, and if you don't agree with them on said condemnations they say you aren't Catholic either.  They may have chilled out a bit lately, but there's an old video where they say a Sedevacantist priest who died is "certainly" in Hell, and they even say that you aren't a real Catholic if you disagree with them that he's in Hell!

    So like, its one thing to say "All non Catholics are damned" and let the chips fall where they may (maybe so and so converted in his heart before he died, or something), its another thing to say "All non Catholics are damned, therefore so and so non Catholic is definitely in Hell) and then its *another* thing to say "all non Catholics are damned, therefore this specific Catholic individual who disagrees with me is damned" and that latter bit just seems really goofy IMO.

    Also I know you can debate it, but Pius IX *really* seems to make exceptions for invincible ignorance here.  I feel like if anyone said basically what Pius IX said, now, the Dimonds would condemn them as a heretic, but for some reason they don't condemn him because it doesn't fit their agenda.