Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel (Read 237938 times)

Tarmac Turkey · « **Reply #365 on:** February 01, 2026, 01:48:31 AM »

Urban V
Address to the University of Toulouse
"It is our will, which we hereby enjoin upon you, that you
follow the teaching of Blessed Thomas as the true and
Catholic doctrine, and that you labor with all your force
to profit by the same.’’

St. Pius V also ordered an edition of the complete works
of St. Thomas.16 17
Bull In eminenti
He also said of Aquinas that "his theological doctrine, ac-
cepted by the Catholic Church, outshines every other as
being safer and more secure."

Council of Trent
1563 According to Pope Leo XIII, "the chief and special glory
of Thomas, one which he has shared with none of the
Catholic Doctors, is that the Fathers of Trent made it part
of the order of conclave to lay upon the altar, together with
Sacred Scripture and the decrees of the supreme Pontiffs,
the ‘Summa’ of St. Thomas, whence to seek council, reason, and inspiration.’’
As Pope Pius XI confirms, "the Fathers of Trent resolved
that two volumes only, Holy Scripture and the Summa
Theologica, should be reverently laid open on the altar during their deliberations.’’

Noting the above it is evident that the works of the Angelic Doctor were in high regard during the Council of Trent.

Council of Trent Session 7 CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Stubborn · « **Reply #366 on:** February 01, 2026, 05:00:21 AM »

Quote from: Tarmac Turkey on February 01, 2026, 01:48:31 AM

Council of Trent Session 7 CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Commentary by St. Alphonsus Liguori on Trent, Session 7 Canon IV:
"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching. But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons: for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)"

Tarmac Turkey · « **Reply #367 on:** February 01, 2026, 08:03:43 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on February 01, 2026, 05:00:21 AM

Commentary by St. Alphonsus Liguori on Trent, Session 7 Canon IV:
"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching. But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons: for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)"

Excellent catch Stubborn.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) teaches: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”- Moral Theology Book 6.

WorldsAway · « **Reply #368 on:** February 01, 2026, 09:18:20 AM »

Quote from: Tarmac Turkey on February 01, 2026, 08:03:43 AM

Excellent catch Stubborn.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) teaches: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”- Moral Theology Book 6.

Good morning Tarmac, I brought this up to BODers about mid-December..none seemed to want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. Maybe you want to take a stab at it

St Alphonsus' says BOD is de fide, and he gives us a definition of it. Here it is, reposted, please note the bolded:

Quote

Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

Now here is what Trent teaches:

Quote

Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”

Please note that Trent says that unless you are born again, you would never be justified

Quote

Sess. 5
Decree Concerning Original Sin

5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

Now see how Trent describes the man "born again", especially the last sentence.

Compare this with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, which he believed to be de fide

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #369 on:** February 01, 2026, 10:46:21 AM »

And yet St. Alphonsus in his own tract on the Matter of Baptism says that "blood is certainly invalid matter" of the sacrament, materia certe invalida est, sanguis. So let me get this straight, I cannot baptize someone with blood, but if I am unbaptized, I am able to baptize myself in my own blood. He says that martyrdom is not a sacrament because it was not an "action instituted by Christ," quia martyrium non esse actio instituta a Christo. Christ instituted the sacraments, and the sacraments are necessary for salvation, period, end of story.

And he also says that martyrdom does not strictly operate as the sacraments do, and that neither martyrdom nor baptismus flaminis "baptism of desire" confers the character. He says that "flaminis" means impulse of the Holy Spirit, impulsum Spiritus Sancti. Once again, this is vague and can mean many things.

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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel (Read 237938 times)

Tarmac Turkey

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Stubborn

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Tarmac Turkey

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WorldsAway

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OABrownson1876

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel